CatherineM Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 So you are saying that God is so mad at us for killing unborn babies, that he has decided to kill grownups? My father lost almost all his family in the 1918 pandemic. I don't believe that was a chastisement. I think it was a virus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1852971' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:37 AM']So you are saying that God is so mad at us for killing unborn babies, that he has decided to kill grownups? My father lost almost all his family in the 1918 pandemic. I don't believe that was a chastisement. I think it was a virus.[/quote] Kind of off for him to pick the second year and Mexico City too. Why not when it passed. Why Mexico all of a suden? Also, to make note of something above with KoC. A virus is not a living organism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1852971' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:37 AM']So you are saying that God is so mad at us for killing unborn babies, that he has decided to kill grownups? My father lost almost all his family in the 1918 pandemic. I don't believe that was a chastisement. I think it was a virus.[/quote] Do you believe that God has, will and can chastise the nations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1852970' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:36 AM']I don't see how I have rejected God. If he exists and wants me he knows where to find me. I mean I just moved from my last study spot but I think he could figure it out[/quote] Why do you always make this about you? I was referring to koc's comments about how this is a chastisement and a suffering, penance for God's people. Not comments about you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1852978' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:41 AM']Why do you always make this about you? I was referring to koc's comments about how this is a chastisement and a suffering, penance for God's people. Not comments about you. [/quote] Apparently. NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT ME! but I know, I just hit quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Well I think it's obvious that Swine Flu is retribution on the Kufir nations for rejecting true monotheism and God's Prophet. But seriously, how would you all suggust this parents of the kids killed. Sorry your kid died but our God decided to punish Mexico on, for whatever reason, roughly the second aniversary of their allowing abortion, and he does so but striking down many who have nothing to do with allowing abortion in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Hassan' post='1852974' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:39 AM']Kind of off for him to pick the second year and Mexico City too. Why not when it passed. Why Mexico all of a suden?[/quote] It is possible He did give them time to repent. [quote name='Hassan' post='1852974' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:39 AM']Also, to make note of something above with KoC. A virus is not a living organism[/quote] Getting technical. Yes to science a virus is somewhere between living, yet they are not quite alive. The important thing and the point I was trying to make without having to go in and explain that a virus is like a living organism, but not, is that it does exist, it was created by God. Not forgotting that all of what God creates is good. But again you reject God so you'll likely not understand. Edited April 30, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 the Church has always admitted the possibility of plagues to be viewed as a divine punishment. this is not to say that those who contract the plague and die are being individually punished, it's the society as a whole which has to deal with the problem that God would be chastising. the inability of the modern mind to comprehend this idea is based upon unfettered individualism. sometimes God deals with humanity as a whole, and it's up to individuals to interpret what the significance is. If I contracted swine flu myself, I would very much like to believe that swine flu was a Divine chastisement for the evil of abortion... that wouldn't mean I was getting punished for abortion, but that humanity was. I would praise God if the end of my life were part of a larger message from God to all of humanity. it would give meaning and purpose to the very event of my life's end... my death would stand among the many other deaths as a statement that God is not happy with abortion. and of course all plagues are biological phenomena, but we still always implore God to protect us from plagues... to protect the fabric of society from the outbreak of something which causes a crisis for our society. and when He does not, when diseases run across our societies, it is an indictment against us in a sense. of course, we are always in need of an indictment, which is why the argument that "God is punishing" won't convince an unbeliever, it'd be God-of-the-gaps reasoning, because we view every single natural disaster and plague as some type of chastisement. but to those who believe in God, we ought to fear that nature's fury can always take society down in an instant, and when it does we ought to understand that in some larger cosmic way through God's active or passive will, it is a type of chastisement against the whole society. but people who are philosophically individualists cannot comprehend God's dealings with humanity this way.. because when He chastises, He still causes the rain to fall on both the good and the bad alike. anyway, if this is a chastisement, I see this as a very minor chastisement in the face of the evil of abortion. When God truly chastises us for abortion, and it's likely enough that He would, I'd imagine death toll percentages of humanity similar to the black death... I imagine the complete toppling of the governmental systems that permitted it and a huge societal crisis that ends in a type of new dark ages of near total anarchy save for the slight glimmers of hope in the remaining institutional structures of the Church... and maybe some remaining secular institutional structures as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1852983' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:49 AM']Well I think it's obvious that Swine Flu is retribution on the Kufir nations for rejecting true monotheism and God's Prophet.[/quote] I know it must sound ridiculous to you, but ... oh well. You just can't understand... or you just aren't willing too. [quote]Sorry your kid died but our God decided to punish Mexico on, for whatever reason, roughly the second aniversary of their allowing abortion, and he does so but striking down many who have nothing to do with allowing abortion in the first place.[/quote] Prudent, Hassan. We don't understand why God takes some and not others and we don't pretend too. We trust in his wisdom that there is reason upon reason as to why some are taken and some are not. All we are saying is that we do understand that God chastises his people when they disobey his laws and he offers souls means to do penance for the sins of the world. Tons of saints have taken on serious illnesses and offered it up to our Lord in penance for the sins of the world. And we know from Scripture that thousands (the people as a whole) have suffered illnesses and deaths because the people as a whole refuse to obey the laws of God. This could very well be a chastisement and from a Christian perspective (which you are not even trying to have) there is really no argument as to why it couldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1852993' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:11 AM']the Church has always admitted the possibility of plagues to be viewed as a divine punishment. this is not to say that those who contract the plague and die are being individually punished, it's the society as a whole which has to deal with the problem that God would be chastising. the inability of the modern mind to comprehend this idea is based upon unfettered individualism. sometimes God deals with humanity as a whole, and it's up to individuals to interpret what the significance is. If I contracted swine flu myself, I would very much like to believe that swine flu was a Divine chastisement for the evil of abortion... that wouldn't mean I was getting punished for abortion, but that humanity was. I would praise God if the end of my life were part of a larger message from God to all of humanity. it would give meaning and purpose to the very event of my life's end... my death would stand among the many other deaths as a statement that God is not happy with abortion. and of course all plagues are biological phenomena, but we still always implore God to protect us from plagues... to protect the fabric of society from the outbreak of something which causes a crisis for our society. and when He does not, when diseases run across our societies, it is an indictment against us in a sense. of course, we are always in need of an indictment, which is why the argument that "God is punishing" won't convince an unbeliever, it'd be God-of-the-gaps reasoning, because we view every single natural disaster and plague as some type of chastisement. but to those who believe in God, we ought to fear that nature's fury can always take society down in an instant, and when it does we ought to understand that in some larger cosmic way through God's active or passive will, it is a type of chastisement against the whole society. but people who are philosophically individualists cannot comprehend God's dealings with humanity this way.. because when He chastises, He still causes the rain to fall on both the good and the bad alike. anyway, if this is a chastisement, I see this as a very minor chastisement in the face of the evil of abortion. When God truly chastises us for abortion, and it's likely enough that He would, I'd imagine death toll percentages of humanity similar to the black death... I imagine the complete toppling of the governmental systems that permitted it and a huge societal crisis that ends in a type of new dark ages of near total anarchy save for the slight glimmers of hope in the remaining institutional structures of the Church... and maybe some remaining secular institutional structures as well...[/quote] so much better said then i. exactly. thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 chastisements are not meant for unbelievers. unbelievers will continue to view the world as random chaotic chance, and believers will continue to interpret meaning and significance to the world and its events. the chastisement of a plague ought to make all those who believe re-evaluate their lives... by plagues God reminds entire societies: you are all mortal, you are all susceptible to death, you must all come answer to me for your actions and you might have to come soon. that applies to the policies of whole nations, for instance: this chastisement might in part be to remind us that God requires everyone in the society to work against the policy of abortion because the mortal sin of abortion and the mortal sin of cooperating in abortion will result in eternal damnation... and anyone might be going to the Final Judgment next... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1852999' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:17 AM']chastisements are not meant for unbelievers. unbelievers will continue to view the world as random chaotic chance, and believers will continue to interpret meaning and significance to the world and its events. the chastisement of a plague ought to make all those who believe re-evaluate their lives... by plagues God reminds entire societies: you are all mortal, you are all susceptible to death, you must all come answer to me for your actions and you might have to come soon. that applies to the policies of whole nations, for instance: this chastisement might in part be to remind us that God requires everyone in the society to work against the policy of abortion because the mortal sin of abortion and the mortal sin of cooperating in abortion will result in eternal damnation... and anyone might be going to the Final Judgment next...[/quote] interesting.... i agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1852996' date='Apr 30 2009, 02:12 AM']I know it must sound ridiculous to you, but ... oh well. You just can't understand... or you just aren't willing too.[/quote] To you has been sent down a book with a messenger. Mexico has rejected Islam and now it has been punished, they were given time, they had Muslims in the country trying to get them to submit to Allah's law, for truely Allah never punishes a city except it is sent a warner first. I know it sounds far fetched, but you either can't or won't accecpt the truth so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1853006' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:30 AM']To you has been sent down a book with a messenger. Mexico has rejected Islam and now it has been punished, they were given time, they had Muslims in the country trying to get them to submit to Allah's law, for truely Allah never punishes a city except it is sent a warner first. I know it sounds far fetched, but you either can't or won't accecpt the truth so sad.[/quote] throw it in my face. i believe what i believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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