You Know What's Really Sad?

[Old_Joe]

[quote name='mmc4' post='1852382' date='Apr 29 2009, 04:39 PM']I was in my history class yesterday, and we were reviewing our notes on Islam and the Muslim culture. We were talking about how the Islamic people would tax non-believers, and one girl said, "Well why didn't they just say they were Islamic so they didn't have to pay?" And my teacher explained that it would be denying their own god and lying about their faith, and she said, "Well it's like the Catholics being persecuted. Even though I'm a Catholic, I would've said I wasn't just so I wouldn't get killed. Then I'd go back to being Catholic."

That just hit me really hard. I can't even imagine how people can just be (insert religion here) when it's convenient for them. That's really bad. I don't think I'm the only one this bothers though.[/quote]

I heard something similar regarding the Jews when we were studying WWII in my high school history class. I immediately thought, "You might as well ask them not to breathe."

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1853892' date='Apr 30 2009, 10:20 PM']I don't think that's a completely fair assessment of Peter's faith.

Just because a person falters in their faith in a time of duress does not mean they don't have faith/trust. It just means they are human and have a ways to go before their faith is perfected. A weak faith still exists, it is just not yet ready to face life-or-death challenges (which is what Peter was facing).

Development of faith is something like human development. You start out as a baby needing special care and feeding, and gradually grow into a fuller appreciation of what it means to be who you are. Peter had baby faith. It got bigger later, but I have no doubt it was still there when he denied Christ.[/quote]

I think it is fair. When he denied Christ, he denied Christ. Not kinda sorta. But fully three different times. Simple understanding of the law of non-contradiction will tell you, that you can not truly believe and deny Christ at the same time. When Peter saw what he and done 'he wept bitterly' because he knew that he had not trusted in Christ and had rejected Him.

Edited May 1, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[StColette]

mmc,

Yes, it's very troubling that someone would deny Christ to save themselves. As MIkolbe pointed out, even Peter, in a time of great duress, denied Christ and look he was the leader of the Apostles and the First Pope. In fact, all of the Apostles, save John, fled in order to save themselves. The other Apostles and Peter became greatly remorseful for denying the Lord and sought forgiveness for such an act. But, we are all guilty of denying or not trusting in Christ often in our lives. Each time we sin, even venial sin, we are turning our backs on Christ. We are cutting ourselves off, sometimes completely, from him. We have taken for granted the great gift of His sacrifice upon the cross. Yes, denial of the Lord hurts Christ deeply, but we all share in that hurt in some manor, some more than others, each time we sin.

So, I believe this is a good thing to keep in mind when thinking about others and the judgments that they would make. Again, we are all guilty of denying and not trusting in Christ.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='StColette' post='1854263' date='May 1 2009, 12:18 PM']mmc,

Yes, it's very troubling that someone would deny Christ to save themselves. As MIkolbe pointed out, even Peter, in a time of great duress, denied Christ and look he was the leader of the Apostles and the First Pope. In fact, all of the Apostles, save John, fled in order to save themselves. The other Apostles and Peter became greatly remorseful for denying the Lord and sought forgiveness for such an act. But, we are all guilty of denying or not trusting in Christ often in our lives. Each time we sin, even venial sin, we are turning our backs on Christ. We are cutting ourselves off, sometimes completely, from him. We have taken for granted the great gift of His sacrifice upon the cross. Yes, denial of the Lord hurts Christ deeply, but we all share in that hurt in some manor, some more than others, each time we sin.[/quote]

Indeed.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1854253' date='May 1 2009, 11:48 AM']I think it is fair. When he denied Christ, he denied Christ. Not kinda sorta. But fully three different times. Simple understanding of the law of non-contradiction will tell you, that you can not truly believe and deny Christ at the same time. When Peter saw what he and done 'he wept bitterly' because he knew that he had not trusted in Christ and had rejected Him.[/quote]

At one time or another, we all deny Christ. This does not mean that we completely throw away our faith, it means that we are caught up in a time of weakness and human emotion. How many people, mourning the loss of a loved one, blame God and get angry with Him? How many of those individuals rage "If God existed this would not have happened" to friends and family, in a moment of despair and grief? Being a Christian is very hard a lot of the time. If it is hard for us, how hard was it for men like Peter who went through such emotional turmoil (doubting and such) firsthand? He was afraid for his life. Who knows, maybe he had a brief crisis of faith when he saw Christ being dragged away. Maybe in that instant he wondered if this man was really the Messiah, as how could a Messiah be overpowered like that? Peter was a holy and devout man - he was our first Pope! - but he was a sinner just like the rest of us. Scripture does not go into detail about his thoughts or the countless emotions he was experiencing during Good Friday.

It is wrong to say that you can not truly believe AND deny Christ at the same time, because like I said, we ALL have denied Christ at one point or another. Are you telling me that a man like Peter never truly believed in Christ all that time because he denied Christ out of fear and weakness? Peter wept bitterly because of his sin and because he had displeased God. But keeping your initial claim in mind, we all must not be true Christians, then. How about reverts to the Catholic faith? Do they not have a "true" faith in Christ because they at once fell from the Church? It is wrong to judge others in this way.

[KnightofChrist]

Denial of God for whatever reason is one of the greatest sins anyone can commit. We [i]can not serve two masters[/i]. Denying Christ in a certain moment in time is for that moment rejecting Him, and not trusting in Him. If we do not trust in Him we do not at that moment truly (fully) believe in Him.

There is also a difference from verbal denial of God, and denial through our sins. I know that we all through our sins deny and reject God. Yet it is a greater sin to [i]deny Him before men[/i]. I would even argue that it is a greater sin for a Christian to deny God than a lifetime Atheist to deny God. The atheist has never known God to trust in Him. The Christian has known Him, heard His promises, yet by denying Him still does not trust in Him.

It is not wrong to say that you can not truly (fully) believe and deny the Holy Host of Heaven, Jesus Christ at the same time. If we deny His name, we do not trust in His name, if we do not trust in His name if we do not trust Christ be it all our lives or just three times within our lives at those moments we do not truly believe, that is doubt. This is why Christ constantly repeated to His disciples "O ye, of little faith, why do you doubt!?" Doubt is disbelief.

And no I am not saying that Peter and others that deny Christ 'never' truly believed in Christ, I am saying that during those moments in which He denied our Lord, he doubted our Lord. "I DO NOT KNOW THE MAN!" Capital letters because Peter did shout this, He did not even know "the man" Jesus of Nazareth. Peter's denials of God was rejection and doubt of God for that moment in time. There is no way out of it.

Edited May 2, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[tinytherese]

I've had difficulties in my spiritual life and have sinned. I've really hurt Our Lord before and I have struggled with trusting in Him. Heck, I was verbally abusive to Him, yet even during that time, deep down I still trusted in Him. However I just didn't know how to live it out or how to fully accept it. I still struggle with this but it's not as serious as it once was.


Since we're talking about St. Peter, I'd like to recommend an AMAZING film about him. The Power of the Resurrection is a story about The Passion and Resurrection of Our Lord, and the preaching at Pentecost from the perspective of St. Peter. The audience gets to see the saint struggle, commit sin, and then grow to become a saint. The main message in it was, "I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me." It's one of my favorite films.