Christ Is The Truth

[thessalonian]

"Yes, I understand what you are saying about how people choose to see things, e.g., I as a Byzantine Christian see heaven as God Himself given to us. In other words, heaven for me is the never-ending process of theosis (divinization) whereby the saints stretch infinitely into God through the gift of His uncreated energies. "


Now that I like.

[thessalonian]

I guess I could go along in some sense with LVF's statement in that our limited capacity will never come close to having full knowledge of the infinite and divine.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1852291' date='Apr 29 2009, 03:04 PM']Forgive my applying the dictionary meaning to these words[/quote]

I forgive you. Could you tell me which definition of "hate" we should use in Luke 14:26?

"If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."

I see your point about my word choice... it was a quick answer and I expected the intent would be understood as I hope I can be given some grace and benefit of the doubt.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1852291' date='Apr 29 2009, 03:04 PM']"Truth isn't what you know"

Isn't meaning IS NOT as I recall, meaning it is something else and not what we know, i.e. knowledge.
Christ said "you shall KNOW the truth".
In Jer 3:15 we read "you shall KNOW the truth"
In timothy we read "give them KNOWLEDGE and understanding".

If truth isn't what we know then these statements are contradictory to truth, i.e. Christ. It's not a matter of expounding. But since you have rescinded your remark I accept your clarification.[/quote]

And in the Ten Commandments, were are told to honor our father and mother. And people think the Old Testament God gets a bad rap... Jesus was turnin' the water into Hatorade!

False dichotomies they are all. Personally, I hope there is more to Christian theology than sorting out false dichotomies

In response to reyb's question about the statement, "Christ is the Truth," we are referring to Truth as a Person, Jesus Christ, and thus it is appropriate to first acknowledge our relationship with Truth as revealed in Christ. Thus, we come to know Truth through the experience of our relationship with Truth. The knowledge referred to in Jeremiah and Timothy are those specific things we learn from Christ in communion with his Body and Bride.

Of course, knowing the nature of reyb's posts, I expect he/she wants to make a point about how we Catholics allow book knowledge and theology to get between us and a true "biblical" relationship with Christ. Tor some people, this is true to an extent, but that is an issue treated through becoming a better disciple of Christ who learns to cherish Truth and glorify God with knowledge rather than throwing out the goodness of Truth to seek a "simpler" path.

Or I might be wrong... we'll have to see what reyb has to say.

Edited April 29, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Dr_Asik]

If you read Aquinas you may quickly notice a pattern: that an expression has different meanings and that the appropriate answer to a question involves the examination of all the possible meanings of that question.

Truth is, in the most common sense, is defined as "adaequatio rei et intellectus", correspondance between the mind and reality.

However, in Aristotelian-thomist metaphysics, truth is also defined as one of the primary universals; it is the intelligibility of a thing, the measure in which it is comprehensible by an intellect.

Thus in Summa Q16 a.5, at the question "Is God truth?", Saint Thomas Aquinas beings his answer by making this very distinction: [url="http://newadvent.org/summa/1016.htm#article5"][b]truth is found in the intellect according as it apprehends a thing as it is; and in things according as they have being conformable to an intellect.[/b][/url] He then goes on to explain that both of these meanings can effectively be said of God*, hence that God is truth.

Now, Christ is God.
Hence, Christ is truth.


*Full answer : [b]As said above (Article 1), truth is found in the intellect according as it apprehends a thing as it is; and in things according as they have being conformable to an intellect. This is to the greatest degree found in God. For His being is not only conformed to His intellect, but it is the very act of His intellect; and His act of understanding is the measure and cause of every other being and of every other intellect, and He Himself is His own existence and act of understanding. Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth.[/b]

Edited April 29, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Apotheoun]

Sensible light shows things to our senses. The intellectual light is to manifest the truth which is contained in thoughts. But those who receive the spiritual or supernatural Light, perceive what is beyond all intellect. They participate in the divine energies and become themselves, in a sort, Light. When they unite to the Light, they see with it in full all that is hidden from those who have not seen the grace of Llight. The Uncreated Light is the Light where God makes Himself manifest to those who enter into union with Him.

[i]St. Gregory Palamas[/i] (1296 - 1359)

[thessalonian]

OK LVF, now I'm with ya on that post. I do agree that an English dictionary has limited value when dealing with scripture and your point on hate is well taken.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1851339' date='Apr 28 2009, 02:58 PM']My apologies for failing to flesh it out more fully, but keep in mind this is a response to reyb. I didn't want to commit [b]the sin of giving pearls to swine[/b].[/quote]

Is giving your pearl to the swine a sin? How about to the dogs?
[post="1859082"]I have a question and please put it here.[/post]

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1852407' date='Apr 29 2009, 03:55 PM']In response to reyb's question about the statement, "Christ is the Truth," we are referring to Truth as a Person, Jesus Christ, and thus it is appropriate to first acknowledge our relationship with Truth as revealed in Christ. Thus, we come to know Truth through the experience of our relationship with Truth. The knowledge referred to in Jeremiah and Timothy are those specific things we learn from Christ in communion with his Body and Bride.[/quote]

And you have ‘relationship’ with the Truth - Because you believe in Him and you also believe that you have relationship with Him. Am I correct?

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1851256' date='Apr 28 2009, 12:10 PM']Truth isn't what you know, but who you know and how you live.[/quote]

My question ‘May I know what you mean by ‘Christ is the truth’? was answered by ‘Truth isn't what you know, but who you know and how you live’, which is a distorted statement. Because, if you really know Him then you should know the Truth since He is the Truth.

I think, what you are trying to say is - ‘you believe you know Him’ (rather than, ‘you know him’).

Am I correct?

[reyb]

According to Metaphysics by Alvira, Clavell and Melendo in pp 151, ‘Truth is something principally attributed to judgments of our understanding. However, truth of the understanding depends on being.’

Truth therefore has two kinds namely, logical truth –the truth which is the conformity of the intellect with reality – and ontological truth – the truth which means ‘being itself is truth’.

Thus, ‘true’ is said in three fundamental senses according to Gnoseology by Alejandro Llano pp. 19, to wit; 1. as conformity of the intellect with the thing, 2. as true knowledge, and 3. as the truth of things. The first is the logical truth and the third is the ontological truth and he explained the second by saying ‘knowledge which is not the effect of the truth is not really knowledge, since to know falsely is, in some ways, equivalent simply to not knowing’.

Now, in Christianity ‘Jesus Christ as a person is Truth himself’. We can consider it as the third fundamental sense on the above philosophical hypothesis – which is the ‘ontological truth’ or ‘being itself is truth’.

Of course, Christians accepted that ‘Jesus Christ as a person is the Truth’ because it is written in the scripture. But whether they succeeded to comply with the first fundamental sense – meaning if Apostle Paul and other witnesses is truly referring to this historical Jesus - and thus, not to fall in the second, which means ‘to know falsely is equivalent to not knowing’, is somewhat problematic if we will investigate their known truth which is purely based on faith.

As I have said, witnesses have no problem to comply with these three fundamental senses of this hypothesis because; they are all ‘witnesses of Truth’.

My question is ----

Do you really know the Truth? Or you just believe you know Him?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1867857' date='May 15 2009, 04:26 AM']Do you really know the Truth? Or you just believe you know Him?[/quote]

Believing is a big deal. It has earthly and eternal consquences. We don't "just" believe.

To revise my statement: Truth is more than what we know; Truth is a Person we know and a relationship we experience.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1867917' date='May 15 2009, 10:32 AM']Believing is a big deal. It has earthly and eternal consquences. We don't "just" believe.[/quote]

Every believer hold some reasons to have faith, and therefore to moan ‘I do not just believe’ is normal but, whether that reason is true and establish in three fundamental senses as we have discussed earlier, is a different story.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1867917' date='May 15 2009, 10:32 AM']To revise my statement: Truth is more than what we know; Truth is a Person we know and a relationship we experience.[/quote]
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Faith does not guarantee the reality of truth although it is a type of certainty in terms of firmness of the assent, and because of the definition of faith itself which tends to ignore the vagueness of the knowledge presented- in this platform - deception starts to occur.

Faith is good provided it is in line with the truth but if truth is seen because of faith in the absence of these three fundamental senses - then this knowledge about truth is a lie. Truths are meant to be known and not otherwise because, faith has no power to claim the reality of truth since faith cannot change a lie to become true thus, it is not proper to say ‘I know the Truth because I believe I know it’ . Just like in mystery – mysteries are meant to be revealed but if falsehood is said to be a mystical truth then it is not meant to be revealed because it is not a mystery but a lie pretending to be a concealed truth. This fraudulent mystery was accepted because of faith and nothing else.

These downside properties of faith trigger the reality of truth to sink deeper in the face of obscurity, and in that same obscurity, falsehood grabs the opportunity to pretend as truth. Hence, even an honest and faithful follower, unknowingly, becomes lovers of lies.

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When you say, ‘Truth is more than what we know’, you are saying ‘You do not know that Truth you ought to know’. And when you further said ‘Truth is a person we know’, you are actually saying ‘you believe that this historical Jesus is the Truth’ – and that is what you know.

In short, you do not really know the truth but, you believe you know it. It is somewhat irregular as I have previously explained.

Now regarding your ‘relationship you have experience’, it is not bad. Nevertheless, in Rom 2:17-24 the Jews brag about their relationship to God because of faith. May I know what is that ‘relationship you’ve experience’ other than faith?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1872602' date='May 21 2009, 06:38 AM']When you say, ‘Truth is more than what we know’, you are saying ‘You do not know that Truth you ought to know’. And when you further said ‘Truth is a person we know’, you are actually saying ‘you believe that this historical Jesus is the Truth’ – and that is what you know.[/quote]

My statement "Truth is a Person we know" is clarifying the previous statement, "Truth is more than what we know." So when I say "Truth is more than what we know," I am saying Truth is a Person we know and a relationship we experience.

[quote name='reyb' post='1872602' date='May 21 2009, 06:38 AM']Now regarding your ‘relationship you have experience’, it is not bad. Nevertheless, in Rom 2:17-24 the Jews brag about their relationship to God because of faith. May I know what is that ‘relationship you’ve experience’ other than faith?[/quote]

The Jews bragged about their relationship with God as descendents of Abraham. Relationships are, by nature, an experience. You cannot share a relationship with another person without sharing some sort of experiences. You and I have never met, but our relationship is based on the experience of these conversations. Therefore, I am being redundant, but wanted to emphasize that following Christ and the process of sanctification is a lifelong journey. The relationship is based on the mystery of Christ's death and Resurrection reconciling God and mankind through his divine and human natures. Thus, through the Son we have access to the Father, allowing us to share a relationship that isn't possible otherwise.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1872646' date='May 21 2009, 10:31 AM']My statement "Truth is a Person we know" is clarifying the previous statement, "Truth is more than what we know." So when I say "Truth is more than what we know," I am saying Truth is a Person we know and a relationship we experience.[/quote]

I give emphasis on whether you really know the Truth (Truth as person or Jesus Christ) or you just ‘believe’ you know Him.

Do you really know Him?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1872878' date='May 21 2009, 08:00 PM']I give emphasis on whether you really know the Truth (Truth as person or Jesus Christ) or you just ‘believe’ you know Him.

Do you really know Him?[/quote]

Yes, I know him.