Did Jesus Want An Organize Religion

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1848928' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:27 PM']Does it make sense for Christ to let us guess to what is truth and what is not? If you study history, you will see that Christ started a Church and as it says in Matthew 16:18
[i]
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.[/i]

The Bible is full of verses that point to Christ starting a Church. One can also look at the writings of the Church Fathers and will see evidence of a pope and Church.

How is this debate degrading? I am seeking the truth and am asking questions.

This has been a negative experience in that you have still not provided evidence for pointing out on why you believe what you believe.

If you have evidence, please share it.

How is this going in circles? I have asked you for you to explain your basis in what you believe and you have not answered.

So again, I ask you......how do you know what you know?

We Catholics, have the Church with the Teaching Authority vested in them by Jesus Christ. If you want to look at Apostolic Authority, we can start a new thread.[/quote]


If I must.

Okay here is one of the things I disagree with your religion.

You say Christ has set the Catholic Church to be a Beacon of Truth, right.

Well, that must mean that All Catholics must agree to all doctrines.

Well, in the book of Genesis there is 10 scientific Truths.

If you were seeing the creation of the Earth, through geological and biological development from the surface of the Earth, this is what you would see.

At first there is a thick black cloud over the Earth, created from volcanoes. That would totally block out all light, but when the rain falls, and the oceans form, and Cyno-bacteria form in the oceans, all that black cloud is slowly eaten away, allowing for more and more light. Doesn't that sound like the spirit of God moving out across the waters and saying let there be light? Truth 1.

Cyno-Bacteria would continue to regulate the ecosystem, to the point that there would be a division between the mists and the oceans. Mist being water vapour, let there be a division between the waters and the waters. Truth 2 that is exactly right on.

And as Cyno-Bacteria take more and more water from the atmosphere, it makes the ocean heavy enough to partially collapse the surface of the Earth, doesn't that sound like let all the waters be gathered unto one place, and the dry land to appear. Truth 3 that is exactly right one

And then the predessors of plants, cyno-bacteria and other moss like lifeforms form in the geological records. Truth 4 that is exactly right on.

And then those plants would further regulate the weather patterns, diminishing the cloud cover, so that the sky would truly be open for those seeing it for the first time. And let there be lights in the firament. Truth 5 that is exactly right on.

And then after plant life forms, animal life forms in the oceans, and all animal life owes its existence to the life that happens there. Well, doesn't that sound like the oceans bringing forth abundantly the living creature that hath life, and doesn't the Bible say God created every creature that moves in the oceans. Truth 6 and 7.

And the animal life comes on Land. Well isn't that the next scripture. Truth 8.

And then man forms. Well isn't that what scripture says. Truth 9.

And for the 10th truth. All animal and plant life were formed by God saying, let there be.

I hope this doesn't go over your heads. but I will explain.

Text -
the quick red fox jumped over the lazy dog

Picture -
[img]http://www.westbroek.com/pix/logged/05/log015.jpg[/img]

Both the words above describe each the picture, and the picture is what the words say, right.
But what is language. If I printed up the words in a Chinese newspaper, with that picture, they wouldn't be saying the same thing to the average Chinese person, right. That's because the [b]symbols[/b] we use is radically different from thier's.

This is the first truth in information technology. Symbols need a decoder. Since the average Chinese person doesn't have the decoder (years in English class), they will never understand the code I have just written. But you understand because you have the decoder (years in English Class).

Well, what does this have to do with God said let there be (input life form name here).

Well, DNA looks radically different than the life forms it produces, and through biological processes, it creates all the life around us. One could say it is a very evolved language of life, because it does exactly what the words and picture does here.

Text -
the quick red fox jumped over the lazy dog

Picture -
[img]http://www.westbroek.com/pix/logged/05/log015.jpg[/img]

So, that is scientific Truth 10 - all life is a language, language coming straight from God's mouth.

So, why is it then, lots of Catholics have fallen from the doctrine that Genesis 1 is fully scientific, and correct, and have instead started to listen to deceiving teachers that say it is just fairytales!

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848952' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:49 PM']Okay here is one of the things I disagree with your religion.

You say Christ has set the Catholic Church to be a Beacon of Truth, right.

Well, that must mean that All Catholics must agree to all doctrines.[/quote]
Actually, it just means that the Church teaches the Truth. We have free will, and we are not perfect, and so we (people within the Catholic Church) can be in error when it comes to doctrine. (Though as I said earlier, the doctrine of creation is simply that God created everything, not how or how long it took). Since each person had finite knowledge, then it stands to reason that not all Catholics are fully informed about every doctrine. And so his dissent may stem from lack of knowledge. I've found this to be true when it comes to contraception, that they don't know what the Church teaches and why. This doesn't change the truth of what the Church teaches, just means we need to make sure all Catholics know it and why.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1848961' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:54 PM']Actually, it just means that the Church teaches the Truth. We have free will, and we are not perfect, and so we (people within the Catholic Church) can be in error when it comes to doctrine. (Though as I said earlier, the doctrine of creation is simply that God created everything, not how or how long it took). Since each person had finite knowledge, then it stands to reason that not all Catholics are fully informed about every doctrine. And so his dissent may stem from lack of knowledge. I've found this to be true when it comes to contraception, that they don't know what the Church teaches and why. This doesn't change the truth of what the Church teaches, just means we need to make sure all Catholics know it and why. [/quote]

That is exactly why I don't want this to degrade.

And I think my POV on it is the same - whether it took 4.5 billion years or 6-days, the same events happened in the same order, and the same scientific truths are the same, and everything is 100 per cent the same, so it becomes abhorrant to me to hear so many Catholics say, it isn't scientific truth, when it is clearly that it is, and they haven't been properly informed scientifically or doctrinally that Genesis 1 is just as much scientific truth as it is moral truth, and that we can trust the entire meaning of it.

Like who gets 10 for 10 scientific truths right, truths we have only learned in the past couple of hundred years, and have no knowledge of information theory (which is a new science all together), or the fossil record?

And that is the scientific truths as I have learned them, and I only have high school biology!

You see, I don't want this to become a whole doctrine thing, because I know all people are learning what is right and true doctrine all on they're own, and so, even the doctrine of what is the true church, well if people can be wrong about the doctrines of the creation, and not accept Genesis one as scientific truth, then is it possible people can also be wrong about the doctrine of what the church is?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848910' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:02 PM']I could use that example and say, despite the fact Genesis 1 holds 10 scientific truths, there are many who will gratefully listen to people say it is only a metaphore, and is just a story of metaphorical truth.

I would explain what the 10 truths are, but that would be another discussion, and I don't want to tear people down, like you seem to want to.

So, I don't want to continue, and tear people down, and say, my understanding of doctrine is better than yours, so please, if you want to show Christian Charity, and would like me to show Christian Charity, please don't go any further down this.[/quote]

What would "True Doctrine" be a metaphor for? Yes, Christian charity must be shown, but it can not be used to hide. A persons words speak very much of them, you deny at least somewhat the need for doctrine, even when the Bible requires it, and requires it to be true. With love and Christian charity I would also ask why would you write "My Own" as your religion? There is but [i]one God, one Church, and one Baptism. [/i] One Church, One Religion which is Gods, not yours or even mine, being within the one True Church means sacrificing the self.

A house, or Church divided cannot stand.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848921' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:20 PM']No one (and I mean no one) can truly know if they are deceived or not.[/quote]

Jesus founded His Church upon Peter in no uncertain terms.
The only reasons not to believe that Christ founded His Church upon Peter would be if one denied the verity of the Bible. Otherwise, it's pretty black and white.
[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848925' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:23 PM']Well, why is it then that half the Catholic Church thinks the first chapter of the book of Genesis is not scientific, until I point out 10 scientific truths to them, and then they change their tunes. . .[/quote]
This argument doesn't make sense.
I've heard numerous Catholics (and I take this stance myself) say that Genesis is not to be taken literalistically.
By saying it's a metaphor means that there is a deeper meaning than what the words mean on the surface. It doesn't mean that it's just all made up or anything.
The Church takes no stance on whether evolution (or any other part of science) is true or false. She recognised long ago that she is all about the why, and science is about the how.
I don't see how your "ten truths" are in direct or indirect conflict with anything the Church teaches.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848971' date='Apr 26 2009, 04:05 PM']And I think my POV on it is the same - whether it took 4.5 billion years or 6-days, the same events happened in the same order, and the same scientific truths are the same, and everything is 100 per cent the same, so it becomes abhorrant to me to hear so many Catholics say, it isn't scientific truth, when it is clearly that it is, and they haven't been properly informed scientifically or doctrinally that Genesis 1 is just as much scientific truth as it is moral truth, and that we can trust the entire meaning of it.[/quote]
Taken at a literalistic level, it is almost certainly false. There's an infinitely small chance that all the events of creation actually happened in a period of 144 hours.
That's what Catholics mean. Perhaps you should have sought understanding on the topic before being "abhorred" by it.

Edited April 26, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848971' date='Apr 26 2009, 09:05 PM']That is exactly why I don't want this to degrade.

And I think my POV on it is the same - whether it took 4.5 billion years or 6-days, the same events happened in the same order, and the same scientific truths are the same, and everything is 100 per cent the same, so it becomes abhorrant to me to hear so many Catholics say, it isn't scientific truth, when it is clearly that it is, and they haven't been properly informed scientifically or doctrinally that Genesis 1 is just as much scientific truth as it is moral truth, and that we can trust the entire meaning of it.

Like who gets 10 for 10 scientific truths right, truths we have only learned in the past couple of hundred years, and have no knowledge of information theory (which is a new science all together), or the fossil record?

And that is the scientific truths as I have learned them, and I only have high school biology!

You see, I don't want this to become a whole doctrine thing, because I know all people are learning what is right and true doctrine all on they're own, and so, even the doctrine of what is the true church, well if people can be wrong about the doctrines of the creation, and not accept Genesis one as scientific truth, then is it possible people can also be wrong about the doctrine of what the church is?[/quote]
Forgive me if I'm misreading you, but it looks like you are confusing the teachings of the Church with what various individuals within the Church believe. The Catholic Church teaches true doctrine - always has and always will. We have been promised this. However, not everyone has the knowledge he should regarding these doctrines. This doesn't negate the doctrine itself or the Church, but it does mean the person in question needs to learn what the Church teaches and submit to that teaching.

BTW, just so you know, I'm not irritated/angry or anything in this debate. I know it can sometimes be difficult to gauge such things on a phorum. God bless.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1849001' date='Apr 26 2009, 09:25 PM']I've heard numerous Catholics (and I take this stance myself) say that Genesis is not to be taken literalistically.
By saying it's a metaphor means that there is a deeper meaning than what the words mean on the surface. It doesn't mean that it's just all made up or anything.
The Church takes no stance on whether evolution (or any other part of science) is true or false. She recognised long ago that she is all about the why, and science is about the how.
I don't see how your "ten truths" are in direct or indirect conflict with anything the Church teaches.[/quote]

[Kurall_Creator]

Guys, honestly, what all you are doing right now is exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So, Again I want this thread closed.

[mortify]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848921' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:20 PM']No one (and I mean no one) can truly know if they are deceived or not.[/quote]

Does this mean a person can't infallibly know that they are saved?

[quote]Moderators, I would like this thread closed down, because it just seems to me that is going around in circles, and it's just going to become an entirely negative experience for all![/quote]

You seem to be playing both sides. You express your disagreements with our "religion" (I thought being Christian means we're both part of the same religion?) but then you also say you don't like arguing, and would rather maintain a unity based on the love for Christ.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1849015' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:35 PM']Guys, honestly, what all you are doing right now is exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So, Again I want this thread closed.[/quote]
This thread will not likely be closed because no forum guidelines have been violated.
You posted a question in the debate table, we're answering. Now, if you can't return the volley, there's no shame in conceding the argument.
For future reference, if you don't like this type of heavy discussion, it's probably advisable to stay out of the Debate Table. (Not being uncharitable or snarky, just giving some advice.)

Edited April 26, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS

[dUSt]

Threads are not closed per request. Sorry about that. It's a public phorum, where all are invited to participate.

With that said, if you'd like to convert the the Catholic Church and become a phatmass "Church Scholar", you will have the power to close threads that you start. Tempting huh?

[CatherineM]

I can close threads I start? Cool. I just had such a power rush to my head.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1849015' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:35 PM']Guys, honestly, what all you are doing right now is exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So, Again I want this thread closed.[/quote]
We are asking questions! I never heard that to be a morally bad thing.

[Hassan]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1849100' date='Apr 26 2009, 05:34 PM']Threads are not closed per request. Sorry about that. It's a public phorum, where all are invited to participate.

With that said, if you'd like to convert the the Catholic Church and become a phatmass "Church Scholar", you will have the power to close threads that you start. Tempting huh?[/quote]


I don't start threads, I finish them.

Well if you accecpt Secret Islam you can hang out with me. You don't even have to apostasize from the Church as unlike actual muslims secret muslims don't have any actual religious beliefs or practices.