Did Jesus Want An Organize Religion

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848647' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:41 AM']My ministry doesn't come from doctrines, or the wisdom of men, but is mighty through the Spirit to the pulling down of strongholds.[/quote]
I don't understand how you know this. Why do you use the name "Jesus" instead of "Allah"? I understand your aversion to what you perceive to be man-made doctrines, but do you not think that the only reason you know about Jesus today is because of men passing down His teachings from generation to generation?

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how you can know about Jesus through nothing else but the Holy Spirit?

[quote]That is why I am not big on doctrines. I wish I could help all of Christidom from stopping this tearing down of each other, and to focus on real enemies, like Atheists and occultists.[/quote]
What makes them evil and us good? Doctrines. But your not big on doctrines--so, why so against Athiests and occultists?

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848652' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:52 AM']Well for example... some of the christological heresies are taking the doctrines of Christ and taking them to the extreme. Christ is God. Christ is omnipotent. Christ is sinless. They take these doctrines to the extreme and then deny that Christ is human. So yes they are heretics, but it has to be on a matter of doctrine. I don't know if the example of pride would be to the point of heresy since there is no doctrinal definition (that I know of) defining pride. However, we would still say they are in error and correct them because that is not what the Catholic Church teaches on pride.

They would be what is called scrupulous.[/quote]

But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.

If I asked any atheist if they would want to live their life like Jesus, most would laugh at me, and say, No - I don't believe in him, so why would I live my life like his!

If I asked a Jew, he would also say no.

If I asked a Muslim, he would probably say no as well.

Only a person with the holy spirit would want to live like Jesus lived, who would want to build up his fellow brothers and sisters, because he hears Jesus ask him, like he asked Peter, if you love me you will feed my sheep. I want to feed Jesus' sheep, as you want to feed Jesus' sheep. We both hear the call together, and we respond temparately to fulfill that call.

So, if you then asked, well do you recognize the primacy of the Pope, and someone says, well, no. I don't need a Pope to hear Jesus' call to feed his sheep, and to stand against the kingdom of darkness.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848662' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:06 AM']I don't understand how you know this. Why do you use the name "Jesus" instead of "Allah"? I understand your aversion to what you perceive to be man-made doctrines, but do you not think that the only reason you know about Jesus today is because of men passing down His teachings from generation to generation?[/quote]

Yes, there is a generation from generation building of the church, where believer passed their beliefs to others, as God intended. I am not against any source that would teach God's truth too others.

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848662' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:06 AM']I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how you can know about Jesus through nothing else but the Holy Spirit?[/quote]

I also have a Bible, which I know good men and women decided which books should go into them, and I read it. I recognize that there has to be some authority as to what makes good scripture and what doesn't.


[quote name='dUSt' post='1848662' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:06 AM']What makes them evil and us good? Doctrines. But your not big on doctrines--so, why so against Athiests and occultists?[/quote]

Because of the danger they bring to the human race. Even though they vehently deny this, they are endangering all life on this planet, by saying we are all pieces of sexual meat, and should treat each other like pieces of sexual meat, because that is what life is all about, we are all pieces of sexual meat.

That is degrading, not out of doctrine, but it turns me into nothing but a piece of meat, which I am not!

How many young women look at magazine covers of Maxim, Cosmo, and a variety of others and commit suicide because they starve themselves to death?

How many corporations treat their workers like pieces of meat, using chemicals that are extremely toxic, killing dozens, and endangering thousands, even millions of workers working in industry today, because they treat their workers like pieces of meat.

Honestly, if you need doctrine to tell you this is wrong, I am shocked. . .

You only have to look at the attitude and see what it produces to know what the Atheist and occult world is doing to us right now, and that they are the enemies of humanity and they need to be stopped!

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:11 AM']But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.[/quote]
[b]That is me.[/b] You agree that I have the Holy Spirit! YES!!!

Now that we have established that you affirm that I am being guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit tells me that without the Catholic Church, you may not make it into Heaven.

So, now, it appears that we have a conflict in Holy Spirit messages. Now what?

We can't reference the Bible because it's basically a bunch of doctrines, which you are opposed to... what a dilemma.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:11 PM']But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.

If I asked any atheist if they would want to live their life like Jesus, most would laugh at me, and say, No - I don't believe in him, so why would I live my life like his!

If I asked a Jew, he would also say no.

If I asked a Muslim, he would probably say no as well.

Only a person with the holy spirit would want to live like Jesus lived, who would want to build up his fellow brothers and sisters, because he hears Jesus ask him, like he asked Peter, if you love me you will feed my sheep. I want to feed Jesus' sheep, as you want to feed Jesus' sheep. We both hear the call together, and we respond temparately to fulfill that call.[/quote]

We don't deny that they are Christians. They are still baptized even if they are heretics. We deny that they understand the fullness of truth. They are Christians, but they are in error as to the complete truth.

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:11 PM']So, if you then asked, well do you recognize the primacy of the Pope, and someone says, well, no. I don't need a Pope to hear Jesus' call to feed his sheep, and to stand against the kingdom of darkness.[/quote]

It isn't about what I need, it is about the way that Christ chose for things to be.
Christ gave to Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 16, keys is a reference to Is. 22:22). The keys are only given to a steward, and when the master of the house is away, it is the steward of the house that takes charge over the ruling of the house remaining obedient to his master.
The same thing goes to confessing sins to a priest. Christ breathed the Holy Spirit on to the Apostles giving them the power to forgive and to bind sins. How do they know which to bind and which to forgive unless it is confessed to them? Those sins that a man is not truly sorry for ("I'm sleeping with my girlfriend out of wedlock, but I'm not going to move out or stop") are not forgiven by the priest. The priest refuses absolution of sins (absolve, from latin ab-solvere, to loosen from) in such cases.

[dUSt]

[quote]I also have a Bible, which I know good men and women decided which books should go into them.[/quote]
How do you know that?

[Slappo]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848671' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:21 PM']So, now, it appears that we have a conflict in Holy Spirit messages. Now what?[/quote]

Holy Spirit messages... haha... You'd better coin that terminology before some master theologian comes and steals it from you.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848671' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:21 AM'][b]That is me.[/b] You agree that I have the Holy Spirit! YES!!!

Now that we have established that you affirm that I am being guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit tells me that without the Catholic Church, you may not make it into Heaven.

So, now, it appears that we have a conflict in Holy Spirit messages. Now what?

We can't reference the Bible because it's basically a bunch of doctrines, which you are opposed to... what a dilemma.[/quote]

Here's one that is going to send your for a flop thought. Even though I have the holy spirit, I know me, you, and everybody else can be in error, even though we have the spirit. Unless, you are saying you understand all truth, and all prophecies, and all knowledge, and all wisdom. . .

I can't know it, you can't, nobody on this board can no it. But what we can do is not say, I know my religion is right and your thoughts are wrong, but we should just accept the glorious complex, ecosystem of the spirit, where all work together for each others benefit, but not all do the same as each other, some are single-celled organisms, some or fungi, some are plants, some are animals. .

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848674' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:24 AM']How do you know that?[/quote]

I have faith that God guided the church fathers, the same way he guides me. They would know what is truth and what isn't truth, and wouldn't withhold anything we need for salvation.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848677' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:27 AM']Here's one that is going to send your for a flop thought. Even though I have the holy spirit, I know me, you, and everybody else can be in error, even though we have the spirit. Unless, you are saying you understand all truth, and all prophecies, and all knowledge, and all wisdom. . .

I can't know it, you can't, nobody on this board can no it. But what we can do is not say, I know my religion is right and your thoughts are wrong, but we should just accept the glorious complex, ecosystem of the spirit, where all work together for each others benefit, but not all do the same as each other, some are single-celled organisms, some or fungi, some are plants, some are animals. .[/quote]

Except for us to not correct a brother or sister who is in error is a sin of omission in failing to instruct the ignorant or to be my brother's keeper. When I recognize someone else in error in a matter where I am sure of the truth (any doctrine or dogma) then it is my duty as a Christian to seek to correct my brother or sister. I am sure that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth as it is founded by Jesus Christ and is promised that the gates of hell will never prevail against it. For lies and false doctrinal teachings to enter the Church would be for Satan to prevail against the Church.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848679' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:31 AM']I have faith that God guided the church fathers, the same way he guides me. They would know what is truth and what isn't truth, and wouldn't withhold anything we need for salvation.[/quote]

The Church Fathers who, by the way, were all Catholic...

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848625' date='Apr 26 2009, 06:49 AM']Without organized religion, you would not know Jesus.
Without organized religion, we would have no Bible.

But back to the original question.

Yes, Jesus wanted an organized religion. Why? For the same reason he has an organized universe, with organized galaxies, and organized solar systems, with organized planets, with organized ecosystems, that contain organized living organisms.

God is organized, and we are made in the image and likeness of Him. We are an organized species, and organization is vital to our existence.

[b]Un-[/b]organized religion is what defies our very nature as God's creations.[/quote]
I love that answer, dUSt. I might have to borrow it sometime. . .

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848641' date='Apr 26 2009, 07:27 AM']Remember, the entire world will know we are God's children through our unity and love for one another. The best way to attack that is to cause disunity. So, we children of God will have to put up with the disunity while we are on the Earth, trusting in the day it will no longer be the case.[/quote]

But how are we unified if we disagree on doctrines? OK, some differences are larger than others, and we can be semi-unified in our worship of Christ, but the unity breaks down when you look at the differences in doctrine.

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848641' date='Apr 26 2009, 07:27 AM']BTW, there is this argument about doctrines about things. I would like to know if All Catholics 100 per cent totally agree with all Doctrines of the Catholic Religion. If members of your own religion can't agree with each other on everything, well, it's not a great argument about differences in denominations in the protestant world. . .[/quote]
I think Slappo covered that very well.

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848651' date='Apr 26 2009, 07:48 AM']That is theological relativism. That is why we care.

If someone believes in something that is a lie, it is our duty to instruct them in the truth. It is considered one of the corporal works of mercy in the Catholic Church to instruct the ignorant.

I would argue also that sins like pedophilia, even the modern cases, go back much farther then the author whom you stated. A sin of pedophilia is a sin of lust, power, and pride. These are the same sins that Adam committed. A sin of lust of the eyes (seeing that the fruit was good and then desiring it even though it was wrong), power (will be like God), and pride (forget exactly how this relates, but I think it had to do with thinking he didn't need God since he could be like God).

Pedophilia can also stem from other sins such as pornography and masturbation. Some Christians deny these acts to be sinful and for me to not correct them could cause them to commit further sins of lust and even pedophilia.[/quote]


[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848666' date='Apr 26 2009, 08:11 AM']But what about someone who agrees to the divinity as you believe it, who chooses to follow Christ as you understand him, and has been baptized, and has repented of their sins, and wishes to learn all they can of Christ and his sufferings, and to conform their lives to Christ, so they can find their life in Christ?

You see, the only person who would seek such a life is one who already has the holy spirit.

[snip]

Only a person with the holy spirit would want to live like Jesus lived, who would want to build up his fellow brothers and sisters, because he hears Jesus ask him, like he asked Peter, if you love me you will feed my sheep. I want to feed Jesus' sheep, as you want to feed Jesus' sheep. We both hear the call together, and we respond temparately to fulfill that call.

So, if you then asked, well do you recognize the primacy of the Pope, and someone says, well, no. I don't need a Pope to hear Jesus' call to feed his sheep, and to stand against the kingdom of darkness.[/quote]
I see what you're saying. However, if a person is being led by the Spirit and is wanting to follow the teachings of Jesus, then they will see that He established the papacy. They will heed His commands to observe the Eucharist. And yes, they will seek to follow the Great Commission. And if all these commands are to be obeyed, and are obeyed, then I honestly think the person will be Catholic, since it is only the Catholic Church that teaches & observes all of these. Or at least that's how I see it, and what brought me into the Church.

[Kurall_Creator]

I think this should help me explain my ideals.

[quote]Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:[b] and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.[/b][/quote]

What did I say, that I accept Jesus Christ as my lord. What does scripture say as my only way of saying that? Only by the holy ghost/spirit. So, the holy scripture, which releases the spirit into our lives, because we can only have faith in God by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[quote]Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[/quote]

Sounds like God wants us to know there will be diversities and differences between all of us, like a great big ecosystem, all working together to build each other up, but each doing something different in our walk with God.

[quote]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[/quote]

Again, the spirit directs each believer into which ministry in the spirit he has.

[quote]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For the body is not one member, but many.[/quote]

Going back the beginning of this chapter, who are the only people who can say Jesus Christ is Lord? Only those with the holy spirit. So if you and I can both say Jesus Christ is Lord, than we both have the holy spirit, cause only the Holy Spirit can make Jesus Christ lord in us. So if we both has the same spirit confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, than we are also in the same body, despite our doctrinal differences.


[quote]If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

And if they were all one member, where were the body?

But now are they many members, yet but one body.[/quote]

Again, there is going to differences between how an eye works, and how feet work, and how ears work, ect, ect, ect, but they all work together for each other's benefit.

[quote]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.[/quote]

Now, we can see some talk about Schism, however, how is it enjoined in scripture, that we should have the same care on for another. No matter what our ministries are, we are to take care of each other - no matter where God leads us, we are to take love each other, and do our best to be in unity with other believers.

Do I want to cause any suffering in anybody who is in the light?

That is why I don't push doctrines too much, when it comes to other believers. To unbelievers, I take the whole, what fellowship does light have with darkness scriptures to heart. But not a believer. If someone is already in the light, why do I have to prove that my way is better than their way, and why do they have to prove their way is better than mine, since we are both in the light, that Jesus, creator and protector of all life, is our lord, so we should do our best to protect all life, and be co-creators with him!

[quote]And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.[/quote]

Again the church is anybody with the holy spirit, who do make Jesus the Lord of their life. It is in all denominations, and not just in the Catholic Church, or the Protestant Church. BTW, there are those in all religions who go to church to be 'good people' who haven't made Jesus Lord, and who can't say Jesus is Lord, because the joys of this life, or the trials of this life are more important to them than Jesus!

[Slappo]

Catholic's do not deny that baptized Christians (baptism is a whole new issue to get into but not right now) are part of the body of Christ. Many Protestant denominations baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore all Christians, be them Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic are members of the body of Christ and of the Church, however as Catholics we believe that only Catholics are in full communion with the Church. We therefore must evangelize even to our Christian protestant brothers and sisters in hopes to bring them into full communion with the Church. Christ established one Church for all of Christianity and we believe that Catholics have the fullness of that truth. The Second Vatican Council in 1962-1965 clearly stated that Protestants are members of the Church but are not in full communion with the Church. Since we believe Catholics to have the fullness of truth and Protestants to have only some truths, we are in union with them, but there is something missing in the union which is why we say they are not in full communion (communion = from [i]cum unus[/i] with one. We are not one because we are in disagreement, but at the same time we are one because we are in agreement therefore it is not full communion)

Maybe this clears up what Catholics really believe for you.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848691' date='Apr 26 2009, 03:02 AM']Catholic's do not deny that baptized Christians (baptism is a whole new issue to get into but not right now) are part of the body of Christ. Many Protestant denominations baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Therefore all Christians, be them Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic are members of the body of Christ and of the Church, however as Catholics we believe that only Catholics are in full communion with the Church. We therefore must evangelize even to our Christian protestant brothers and sisters in hopes to bring them into full communion with the Church. Christ established one Church for all of Christianity and we believe that Catholics have the fullness of that truth. The Second Vatican Council in 1962-1965 clearly stated that Protestants are members of the Church but are not in full communion with the Church. Since we believe Catholics to have the fullness of truth and Protestants to have only some truths, we are in union with them, but there is something missing in the union which is why we say they are not in full communion (communion = from [i]cum unus[/i] with one. We are not one because we are in disagreement, but at the same time we are one because we are in agreement therefore it is not full communion)

Maybe this clears up what Catholics really believe for you.[/quote]

I understand, and when presented in a humble way, I am not offended by them. I wanted to speak peaceful disagreeing words to keep the dialogue open and respectful. Yeah, I have different ideals, and you have different ideals, but we if can agree with certain doctrines then we can be in line with each other.

It's when the extremists come in and say it in no uncertain terms, if you are not Catholic, than you are the enemy, and I want to treat you like the enemy, and say you will burn in hell because you disagree with me. I've had that pushed down my throat before, and I don't like it much, so that is why I tend to stay away from these kinds of debates, but when I can use them to build bridges, I will do so.

I got that opportunity today, when someone started to say how lots of protestant churches will beaver dam Catholics to hell, and I said, it's basically a very crude form of mind control, fearing those who might choose to leave their flocks for Catholicism into submission, while artificially boosting the self-esteem of others who think they are better than Catholics, all because the pastors there are more interested in the thithes of those people, so they don't want to lose income. . .

I am glad for that opportunity to tell the truth, and freeing Angel*Star from those lies forever. Because, ultimately, the truth sets people free.

The next time you hear that from a member of a protestant church, tell them the only reason they are saying that is so someone can boost their self-esteem up artificially, so they think they are spiritually superior than you, and that's not the truth, but lies from Satan.