Did Jesus Want An Organize Religion

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1848622' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:44 AM']If all Christians are on the same side, then why do Christians tell the congregation from the altar that all Catholics are going to hell? Then why do Christians try to "save" me, just because I am Catholic? Most of these people have no idea what the Catholic Church stands for. They are going on here say or what they have heard from their church.[/quote]

A form of control to prevent their Flocks from leaving them. For most, it is their source of income, and they are in it more for the money than spreading truth. This serves to promote fear in those who might choose to go Catholic, and at the same time, artificially boost others self-esteem because they think they are better than Catholics.

Sorry for you being hurt by it.

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1848622' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:44 AM']From what authority are you stating these? As Catholics we have Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition to go to. We can discuss these things from years of studying history. It is not something we have just made up. The Catholic Church never changes.[/quote]

Sheesh, who said I was an authority, or had any authority. Relax. Like I said before, I don't like debating, as it always leads to someone who gets upset and feels like they are beaing torn down. I am sorry for you being upset for me posting, and I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for even saying anything.

[quote name='Angel*Star' post='1848622' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:44 AM']In the 1930's not one single Christian Church accepted contraception. Today, only the Catholic Church tells us to be open to life. They are not saying "have as many babies as possible and fill the world with little Catholics." No, rather the Catholic Church reminds us God had told us throughout the whole bible that children are a gift from God. We are also reminded that God will provide. So, at what point did Christian churches deviate from that teaching and why? On what authority did they change such a fundamental thing? Even Martin Luther did not accept contraception. In fact, he thought it was worse than incest or adultry![/quote]

Again, the holy spirit leads and directs people. We can all know God's law because it is written in our hearts. I can quote the scriptures if you want me too, but every Christ follower can know the difference between truths and lies, and respond temparately to those.

Again, I am sorry for upsetting you with my posts.

Peace.

I love you, and so does Jesus.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848628' date='Apr 25 2009, 09:56 PM']Again, the holy spirit leads and directs people. We can all know God's law because it is written in our hearts. I can quote the scriptures if you want me too, but every Christ follower can know the difference between truths and lies, and respond temparately to those.[/quote]

My question would be, if it is the Holy Spirit that leads and directs people and the Holy Spirit alone (or any of the other persons of the trinity), then who is right when one person claims the Holy Spirit lead him to one thing, and another claims it lead him to another. What about when you have 30,000 people all claiming the Holy Spirit lead them to what they believe but all of their beliefs are very different. The same goes for interpretations of the texts of Scripture.

To say "Well I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe" is relativism and it denies that one of the two people (or 30,000) is wrong. The Holy Spirit cannot lead people to truths that contradict each other.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848628' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:56 AM']Again, the holy spirit leads and directs people. We can all know God's law because it is written in our hearts. I can quote the scriptures if you want me too, but every Christ follower can know the difference between truths and lies, and respond temperately to those.[/quote]
You keep referencing things like "the Holy Spirit" and "God's law" and "scripture".

I want to know why you believe in such things, as they are all products of an organized religion.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848625' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:49 AM']Without organized religion, you would not know Jesus.
Without organized religion, we would have no Bible.

But back to the original question.

Yes, Jesus wanted an organized religion. Why? For the same reason he has an organized universe, with organized galaxies, and organized solar systems, with organized planets, with organized ecosystems, that contain organized living organisms.

God is organized, and we are made in the image and likeness of Him. We are an organized species, and organization is vital to our existence.

[b]Un-[/b]organized religion is what defies our very nature as God's creations.[/quote]

Hey, did I ever say we didn't need organization?

I think we need some kind of structure in our lives, guides, rules, goals and focus in our life.

But we need as little outside interference as possible if we are to grow to be what God intends us to be.

Think about how many children get guilt tripped by they're parents to doing everything they want. Entire generations of children are told what professions to go into. How rabid do parents get to have the next Wayne Grexeky, Arnold Swartzenneger, or Britney Spears?

The less outside interference, the better humanity is to begin with. It is when you no longer listen to all the guilt we live with through what our national leaders, TV leaders, Corporate leaders, religious leaders, and parents instill into us that we can transend all of that and start living out our own destinies in God, each being unique on their own, to the glory of God the father.

So, yes, I am not against organized religion, as long as it isn't all about fear, but exploring who Jesus Christ is, and living out our unique destinies to learn what it means to be who we are in him!

Debate over.

BTW, I specifically asked the person who started this thread not to, because I don't like this kind of debate, because it always ends up being one person saying, my religion is doctrinally superior to all others, so you better do what I say.

I don't want to tear anybody apart for their beliefs, and I am here to share what God has blessed me with than to say, 'I am right and you are wrong', and engage in this kind of debate. And, I don't need guilt trips in my life, and I would rather use my brain to think about my next animation and next story to tell, then thinking about people's opinions about my religious choices that I have made because I would rather explore the life Jesus wants for me, to learn of his sufferings and his grace!

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Angel*Star]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848636' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:09 AM']The less outside interference, the better humanity is to begin with. It is when you no longer listen to all the guilt we live with through what our national leaders, TV leaders, Corporate leaders, religious leaders, and parents instill into us that we can transend all of that and start living out our own destinies in God, each being unique on their own, to the glory of God the father.[/quote]
So, as a parent I should let my children decide if they do drugs or not. I should let them decide if they go to school or not. I let them decide if they steal or not. We as parents have an obligation to help form our children's conscience. They need a little guilt, if that is what you want to call it. We all need to know what is right or wrong. And things are right and wrong. There is no middle ground in most cases.

If you don't like to debate these type of things, why are you on Phatmass? And why did you respond in the beginning. The person who started this thread was trying to get some advice on how to handle a certain situation in her life. She is trying to learn the truth and how to respond to people who try to steer her wrong.

Edited April 26, 2009 by Angel*Star

[dUSt]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848636' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:09 AM']So, yes, I am not against organized religion, as long as it isn't all about fear, but exploring who Jesus Christ is, and living out our unique destinies to learn what it means to be who we are in him!

Debate over.[/quote]
I agree.

For me, it's like, if I wanted to know everything there was to know about transportation, would I go to a school who only teaches me about air and space travel--or would I choose a school who teaches me about everything from when the first wheel was invented all the way up to supersonic high atmosphere jets?

My point is, to know Christ, we should learn about Him from the institution who has taught about Him since He established His church--and not just the things that are recent inventions, or what is popular in the newest best selling book about Him. There are so many religions today that are re-inventing the wheel, and there's no need for that. Like it or not, the popular Jesus you may know today has been viewed through a cloudy lense of modern society. I have chosen to follow Jesus through the eyes of His church, and not my own--because the world knows I need some thick glasses.

It all comes down to conforming yourself to Christ, and not conforming Christ to yourself.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848636' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:09 PM']Debate over.

BTW, I specifically asked the person who started this thread not to, because I don't like this kind of debate, because it always ends up being one person saying, my religion is doctrinally superior to all others, so you better do what I say.

I don't want to tear anybody apart for their beliefs, and I am here to share what God has blessed me with than to say, 'I am right and you are wrong', and engage in this kind of debate. And, I don't need guilt trips in my life, and I would rather use my brain to think about my next animation and next story to tell, then thinking about people's opinions about my religious choices that I have made because I would rather explore the life Jesus wants for me, to learn of his sufferings and his grace![/quote]

I don't recommend posting in the debate table then. It is the place for debating on this forum.

No one is trying to guilt trip anyone and what we are doing here is using our brains to critically think about how various teachings and beliefs can be in line with the rationality of man. Reason ([i]ratio[/i]) was given as a gift by God to man, and it is through reason that we are able to discover truths. Since Jesus Christ is the Truth (way, truth, and life), reason is one of the ways in which we can seek God. The nature of reason is to ask questions and seek answers and by doing so discover the truth. This includes questioning religious choices that various peoples have made.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848631' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:02 AM']My question would be, if it is the Holy Spirit that leads and directs people and the Holy Spirit alone (or any of the other persons of the trinity), then who is right when one person claims the Holy Spirit lead him to one thing, and another claims it lead him to another. What about when you have 30,000 people all claiming the Holy Spirit lead them to what they believe but all of their beliefs are very different. The same goes for interpretations of the texts of Scripture.

To say "Well I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe" is relativism and it denies that one of the two people (or 30,000) is wrong. The Holy Spirit cannot lead people to truths that contradict each other.[/quote]

I don't think of the holy spirit leading us into the 'rules' of a religion, per se. I believe in it's guidance in daily life, and to know what is truth and what is a lie, and to recognize the spiritual state of things.

So, there are probably quiet a few confused, falliable human beings, and we are trying to grasp at truth, be we forget, Only Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, so we forget, the only Truth is Christ, and the life he lived.

On the state of lots of different religions out there, well, that's always been the case for Christianity, because one of the Devil's greatest tactics is to cause disunity. It smells of elderberries, and one day there will be a real unification of all believers, which will happen when Jesus comes back!

Remember, the entire world will know we are God's children through our unity and love for one another. The best way to attack that is to cause disunity. So, we children of God will have to put up with the disunity while we are on the Earth, trusting in the day it will no longer be the case.

Thank you for your respectful questions, BTW.

This is the kind of dialogue I enjoy.

BTW, there is this argument about doctrines about things. I would like to know if All Catholics 100 per cent totally agree with all Doctrines of the Catholic Religion. If members of your own religion can't agree with each other on everything, well, it's not a great argument about differences in denominations in the protestant world. . .

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1848639' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:24 AM']I agree.

For me, it's like, if I wanted to know everything there was to know about transportation, would I go to a school who only teaches me about air and space travel--or would I choose a school who teaches me about everything from when the first wheel was invented all the way up to supersonic high atmosphere jets?

My point is, to know Christ, we should learn about Him from the institution who has taught about Him since He established His church--and not just the things that are recent inventions, or what is popular in the newest best selling book about Him. There are so many religions today that are re-inventing the wheel, and there's no need for that. Like it or not, the popular Jesus you may know today has been viewed through a cloudy lense of modern society. I have chosen to follow Jesus through the eyes of His church, and not my own--because the world knows I need some thick glasses.

It all comes down to conforming yourself to Christ, and not conforming Christ to yourself.[/quote]


That's cool.

Trust me when I say this, I've made my sacrifices in my walk with God too, and I will keep them quiet because Scripture tells us to keep or sacrifices secret, but trust me when I say, I have conformed myself to Jesus, and it isn't the other way around.

If someone told me what my ministry was 10 years ago, I would have ran from it as fast as I could.

My ministry doesn't come from doctrines, or the wisdom of men, but is mighty through the Spirit to the pulling down of strongholds.

That is why I am not big on doctrines. I wish I could help all of Christidom from stopping this tearing down of each other, and to focus on real enemies, like Atheists and occultists.

Did you know that all modern day pedophiles are probably followers of Alister Crowley, a man who wrote occult magick books that detailed sexual acts with children to gain influence with Satan. . .

Are the ministers in both Protestant and Catholic religions who are guilty of those things really Christ followers, or followers of Satan?

Now, with me bringing that up, don't we share the same intense desire to destroy the occult world for just that teaching? Doesn't that make us brothers in arms in something that is truly important?

Who cares how each other relates to God. If we can hate the occult world for bringing that teaching, than that's all we need!

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848641' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:27 PM']BTW, there is this argument about doctrines about things. I would like to know if All Catholics 100 per cent totally agree with all Doctrines of the Catholic Religion. If members of your own religion can't agree with each other on everything, well, it's not a great argument about differences in denominations in the protestant world. . .[/quote]

Yes, there are Catholics who disagree with what the Church teaches in matters of doctrine. However, we refer to them as heretics and I believe that it is grounds for an excommunication.

This is done for the purpose of showing them that the error that they are in is grave. It can be considered loving discipline in a sense, like a father grounding his child. We only hope the child is out of time out before his life is over.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848648' date='Apr 26 2009, 01:42 AM']Yes, there are Catholics who disagree with what the Church teaches in matters of doctrine. However, we refer to them as heretics and I believe that it is grounds for an excommunication.

This is done for the purpose of showing them that the error that they are in is grave. It can be considered loving discipline in a sense, like a father grounding his child. We only hope the child is out of time out before his life is over.[/quote]

But what about a Nuiance of doctrine. They still hold on to the same doctrine, but they change it to make more sense to them, something like pride, and said, even being proud you get an A in school is wrong, and you shouldn't boast about that, ect, ect, ect - taking it to an extreme.

Are they heretics?

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848647' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:41 PM']Who cares how each other relates to God. If we can hate the occult world for bringing that teaching, than that's all we need![/quote]

That is theological relativism. That is why we care.

If someone believes in something that is a lie, it is our duty to instruct them in the truth. It is considered one of the corporal works of mercy in the Catholic Church to instruct the ignorant.

I would argue also that sins like pedophilia, even the modern cases, go back much farther then the author whom you stated. A sin of pedophilia is a sin of lust, power, and pride. These are the same sins that Adam committed. A sin of lust of the eyes (seeing that the fruit was good and then desiring it even though it was wrong), power (will be like God), and pride (forget exactly how this relates, but I think it had to do with thinking he didn't need God since he could be like God).

Pedophilia can also stem from other sins such as pornography and masturbation. Some Christians deny these acts to be sinful and for me to not correct them could cause them to commit further sins of lust and even pedophilia.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848650' date='Apr 25 2009, 11:48 PM']But what about a Nuiance of doctrine. They still hold on to the same doctrine, but they change it to make more sense to them, something like pride, and said, even being proud you get an A in school is wrong, and you shouldn't boast about that, ect, ect, ect - taking it to an extreme.

Are they heretics?[/quote]

Well for example... some of the christological heresies are taking the doctrines of Christ and taking them to the extreme. Christ is God. Christ is omnipotent. Christ is sinless. They take these doctrines to the extreme and then deny that Christ is human. So yes they are heretics, but it has to be on a matter of doctrine. I don't know if the example of pride would be to the point of heresy since there is no doctrinal definition (that I know of) defining pride. However, we would still say they are in error and correct them because that is not what the Catholic Church teaches on pride.

They would be what is called scrupulous.

[Kurall_Creator]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1848651' date='Apr 26 2009, 02:48 AM']That is theological relativism. That is why we care.

If someone believes in something that is a lie, it is our duty to instruct them in the truth. It is considered one of the corporal works of mercy in the Catholic Church to instruct the ignorant.

I would argue also that sins like pedophilia, even the modern cases, go back much farther then the author whom you stated. A sin of pedophilia is a sin of lust, power, and pride. These are the same sins that Adam committed. A sin of lust of the eyes (seeing that the fruit was good and then desiring it even though it was wrong), power (will be like God), and pride (forget exactly how this relates, but I think it had to do with thinking he didn't need God since he could be like God).

Pedophilia can also stem from other sins such as pornography and masturbation. Some Christians deny these acts to be sinful and for me to not correct them could cause them to commit further sins of lust and even pedophilia.[/quote]

I agree on the root goes way before that, but to ignore the fact the occult world almost worships Alister Crowley for his 'contributions' to their world, and there the Pagan and occult religions are some of the fastest growing religions today, we can see the rise of child abuse, both physical, sexual, and emotional is coming from his teachings.

On your thoughts, you are guided by the spirit to see what the true cause is, so I am really enjoying talking to you about this.

I think you were looking for this scripture to talk about Sin, when we're talking about Pedophilia.

# 1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Yes, what Satan promised satisfied the lust of the flesh, and it did look good to them, and they thought they would be like God, the pride of life!

So, even though you didn't know the exact scripture (BTW, I cheat this way, I usually go to a Bible search website to look for the exact wording), but still we think of the same scriptures in the same way. Remarkable, isn't it. How do we, two different people, with two different ways to relate to God, come to the same scripture, and think the same thing as each other?

How is that possible? Wouldn't you agree that the spirit was working inside both of us, revealing the truth to both of us?

On the Masturbation and Pornography stuff, I hear you. It saddens me that we have degraded ourselves to that degree. The occult world, and its increasing prominence in our world is also causing this outbreak, as they are the biggest users of sexual relations to invoke magick in the world, so they continually promote sex, to increase their ranks. And in today's society, many men and women are seduced into that world because of sex!

Edited April 26, 2009 by Kurall_Creator

[Slappo]

[quote name='Kurall_Creator' post='1848654' date='Apr 25 2009, 10:57 PM']I think you were looking for this scripture to talk about Sin, when we're talking about Pedophilia.

# 1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Yes, what Satan promised satisfied the lust of the flesh, and it did look good to them, and they thought they would be like God, the pride of life!

So, even though you didn't know the exact scripture (BTW, I cheat this way, I usually go to a Bible search website to look for the exact wording), but still we think of the same scriptures in the same way. Remarkable, isn't it. How do we, two different people, with two different ways to relate to God, come to the same scripture, and think the same thing as each other?

How is that possible? Wouldn't you agree that the spirit was working inside both of us, revealing the truth to both of us?[/quote]

I was actually referring not to a particular scripture passage, but to in depth Catholic theology on the nature of sin based on the fall of Adam and the redemption Christ went through. Look at the three temptations Christ went through in the desert by satan: each temptation redeems one of the falls of Adam (pride, lust, and power). He is tempted by food (lust of the flesh), pride (testing God), and power (the kingdoms of the world).

In the passage you quoted, the desire for power is not mentioned. Lust of the eyes is an aspect of lust of the flesh so the two go hand in hand.

So really, we weren't coming to the same scripture.