Is Praying To Saints Superfluous?

[mortify]

When we pray to Saints we hope God will answer our prayers by their intercession. Certain passages in the Bible describe Christ as having the roles of intercessor and advocate:
[color="#0000FF"]
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."[/color]
1 John 2:1
[color="#0000FF"]"Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."[/color]
Romans 8:34
[color="#0000FF"]
"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."[/color]
Hebrews 7:25

These passages appear to portray Christ in a [i]subordinate[/i] role, offering intercession on our behalf. If he intercedes for us then we have to admit his intercession surpasses all intercession, and if this is the case, isn't seeking the intercession of saints pointless?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='mortify' post='1846352' date='Apr 24 2009, 05:29 PM']When we pray to Saints we hope God will answer our prayers by their intercession. Certain passages in the Bible describe Christ as having the roles of intercessor and advocate:
[color="#0000FF"]
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."[/color]
1 John 2:1
[color="#0000FF"]"Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us."[/color]
Romans 8:34
[color="#0000FF"]
"Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."[/color]
Hebrews 7:25

These passages appear to portray Christ in a [i]subordinate[/i] role, offering intercession on our behalf. If he intercedes for us then we have to admit his intercession surpasses all intercession, and if this is the case, isn't seeking the intercession of saints pointless?[/quote]
Consider 1 Timothy 2:1-5
[quote]1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:[/quote]
and Hebrew 12:22-24
[quote]22 But you are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, 23 And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.[/quote]
In the first, in the context of Jesus being the mediator of God and men, Christians are urged to pray for one another. This is the purpose of our praying "to the saints," after all -- to ask them to pray for us. So just as we on earth are to pray for one another, we ask our siblings in heaven to pray for us.

In the second passage, we see that we are joining a community that does not just include the Trinity but also "the spirits of the just made perfect." We aren't just in heaven with the Father, Son, and Spirit, but with the rest of our family as well. Just as Jesus allows us to share in the redemptive work he does on our behalf, he also allows us to share in interceding for one another, both us on earth and those we know to be in heaven.

[mortify]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1846377' date='Apr 24 2009, 08:00 PM']In the first, in the context of Jesus being the mediator of God and men, Christians are urged to pray for one another.[/quote]

The verse in Timothy says to pray for everyone, including the pagan civil authority. It's not necessarily a statement about seeking the prayers of another Christian. In my mind it refers to the part of the Liturgy when we offer our petitions for our country's leaders, bishops, and other issues.

[quote]This is the purpose of our praying "to the saints," after all -- to ask them to pray for us. So just as we on earth are to pray for one another, we ask our siblings in heaven to pray for us.[/quote]

But why ask them to pray for us when Christ is our intercessor? What can they gain for us that Christ can't?

The impression I have is that the roles of intercessor and advocate once attributed to Christ, are now attributed to Saints.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='mortify' post='1847367' date='Apr 25 2009, 06:52 PM']But why ask them to pray for us when Christ is our intercessor? What can they gain for us that Christ can't?

The impression I have is that the roles of intercessor and advocate once attributed to Christ, are now attributed to Saints.[/quote]
Are you asking why we ask for the prayers of anyone at all, or just the Saints in Heaven? Because if Christ is our only intercessor in that regard, then we have no need to ask for the prayers of those on earth or in Heaven, IMHO. Though perhaps my understanding is incorrect.

[Sojourner]

Ok, try this on for size:
James 5:16: [quote]Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.[/quote]

That's a direct exhortation that Christians pray for one another's salvation, and the promise that our prayers are effective. Saints are definitely "just men," so it would seem their prayers are effective.

Consider also that we are the Body of Christ, and when we pray justly, moved by the Spirit, our prayers are joined with Christ's. As I said above, he makes room for us to join in his intercession, and to participate in the life of the Trinity through prayer. The saints are already perfected, and where we on earth are hampered they no longer struggle with sin as we do, and so they are better situated to pray justly.

[Sojourner]

Out of sheer curiosity, I wouldn't think this was an issue you would be struggling with personally. My guess is that you are having a discussion with a Protestant friend on this topic?

[mortify]

I guess I'm having a hard time reconciling the Saints as intercessors when we have Christ as intercessor, and if He intercedes for us, why seek the intercession of another?

This is the only way I can reconcile it right now:
To get our prayer answered by the Father we seek Christ's intercession
So that Christ would intercede for us we seek the intercession of Saints

[Sojourner]

I don't know ... I guess the problem I have with the way you've phrased it is that it sounds like Christ is unapproachable, and I don't think that is the case.

In my mind, the way I understand prayer and the saints is similar to the way I think about justification and salvation and redemption. Jesus' work is sufficient, but in his grace he makes room for us to work alongside him. So the prayers are ours, but they are made effective through his work. Even in the verse from James I quoted earlier, it is the prayers of a "just man" that are effective, and none of us achieves justification on our own.

The best analogy I can come up with has to do with family. We are family, and family prays together and talks together and supports one another. The saints are like our older siblings, and Jesus is, of course, the firstborn of all of us. But we are all a family. The way you phrase things makes it sound technical and almost formulaic. While I'm sure there is hierarchy of some sort within the family, the way you've phrased it seems a little ... cold? I'm not sure.

[Dr_Asik]

When I hear Jehovah's Witnesses or Protestants arguing against prayer to Saints, I'd always ask them: do you never ask your mother to pray for you? If they say no, that's embarassing, because it's uncharitable to pray only for yourself; if they say yes, then that's even more embarassing, if your mother can pray for your, why can't the Holy Mother of God?

[KnightofChrist]

Be they Saints, or saints, both are part of the body of Christ. We ask our friends to pray for us, if we truly believe in life in Christ after death, should we not also ask ancestors to also pray for us?

Angels and Saints in heaven continually give God praise and glory. One way the do is to offer up prayers from and for the saints on earth.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1847470' date='Apr 25 2009, 08:11 PM']When I hear Jehovah's Witnesses or Protestants arguing against prayer to Saints, I'd always ask them: do you never ask your mother to pray for you? If they say no, that's embarassing, because it's uncharitable to pray only for yourself; if they say yes, then that's even more embarassing, if your mother can pray for your, why can't the Holy Mother of God?[/quote]
Yeah, that's what I usually do, too. Though I sometimes get a retort of "but they're dead!".

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1847514' date='Apr 25 2009, 04:36 PM']Yeah, that's what I usually do, too. Though I sometimes get a retort of "but they're dead!". [/quote]Well at least you've refuted the "Christ is the sole intercessor" argument. Noe they've made it into "Christ is the sole [i]living[/i] intercessor" which doesn't look quite as impressive

Edited April 25, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Arpy]

Well, from personal experience, I've had Sts. Joseph of Cupertino and Adjutor really come through for me recently.

[dUSt]

[quote name='mortify' post='1847367' date='Apr 25 2009, 01:52 PM']But why ask them to pray for us when Christ is our intercessor?[/quote]
For more prayers.

If you're having a hard time with this, then maybe you should think of it mathematically.

The more you pray, the more effective your prayers are, I'd think. Otherwise, couldn't we all just pray for an intention once in our lifetime and then consider it good enough?

No. That seems silly. So, if two prayers are better than one prayer, and three prayers are better than two prayers, by asking another person (or a saint) to pray for us, we're doubling our prayers. The more people praying, the more prayers.

Now, combine that with the fact that saints are already in heaven... so they probably have way better cell phone signals.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='dUSt' post='1847622' date='Apr 25 2009, 02:48 PM']Now, combine that with the fact that saints are already in heaven... so they probably have way better cell phone signals.[/quote]
Yeah I forgot about the cell phone signals.