StColette Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860967' date='May 7 2009, 04:59 PM']The insanity of a particular suicidal being given Christian burial should probably be discussed in the homily at the funeral, in my opinion. That way, if it wasn't previously known, it would then be. As to adulterers, often times the adultery isn't truly public. If the a private unrepentant adulterer dies, then I actually think it would be wrong to deny him an ecclesiastical funeral since doing so would defame him.[/quote] From a pastoral point of view, I don't believe it would do anyone any good to dredge up a person's mental stability in their funeral Mass homily. If the priest has agreed for a Christian burial to take place, that should be enough. If the priest or bishop knowing the person's mental instability has said a funeral is going to take place, then that's it. If the priest or bishop has made this judgment, why would it be necessary to speak of the person's mental illness? I don't question my priest about a person's funeral or wedding. If he sees that there is nothing barring it from taking place, ie it's not going against Church teaching etc, then who am I to question his judgment in such a matter. And when I, a layperson, am not privy to precana discussions or details of the person's life, what business do I have passing judgment on them and saying that I don't think they should be able to have this or that when I don't know the details. As for adulterers, you would be shocked to know what parishioners know about one another and what is public knowledge to numerous people. Oh I wanted to address the following too. My stupid quotey thing didn't work properly [quote]The fact that the new code no longer mentions suicide specifically [b]might be because[/b] one who commits suicide is almost always a public grave sinner and when the code was published it would be assumed that everyone would be aware of the Christian custom of forbidding ecclesiastical funeral to suicides.[/quote] That's a bit of an assumption. Canon Law, at least from what I know, does not leave room for such assumptions. They tend to cover all their bases as to not have to deal with loopholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1860948' date='May 7 2009, 05:39 PM']Know what would be great if we could not make this a personal and emotional debate. I should have never pointed out that it was an appeal to emotion and not reason, but somehow I doubt that would have stopped name calling of Resurrexi and I. Resurrexi and I basically only responded with Catholic documentation that does back our position and boom, we are put down personally via mostly emotional responses. Lets clean this up shall we?[/quote] O seriously ... Current canon law was pointed out to you in what it did and did not say. CatherineM, a canon lawyer, explained to you what it meant, so get off that the postings were [i]all[/i] personal and emotional. Try calling it what it is - righteous anger at your position. Have we gotten emotional sure - because we are dealing with human life at its most fragile point - when life is so overwhelming you think death is the only relief. And until you have stood by the coffin of a loved one who has made the final choice - you have no clue what "emotional" really means. Current Church discipline takes psychology into consideration when dealing with suicides and possible culpability. Only the Church is qualified to decide who gets a catholic burial, and a suicide is NOT an automatic no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860967' date='May 7 2009, 05:59 PM']The insanity of a particular suicidal should probably be discussed in the homily at the funeral, in my opinion. That way, if his insanity wasn't previously known, it would then be.[/quote] That is one of the cruelest suggestions I have ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 How so? It would keep the people from judging the person to have committed a mortal sin and would preserve his good name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860979' date='May 7 2009, 05:18 PM']How so? It would keep the people from judging the person to have committed a mortal sin and would preserve his good name.[/quote] What right do they have to judge in the first place? That's not their place. What business is it of theirs. Too many people worry about other folks souls/business when they should be more mindful of their own souls/business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) But people can be judgmental. If someone says "John committed suicide" it doesn't make him look very holy. Edited May 7, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Most of us who are very involved in our parish do much of our sinning publicly. What does not always happen publicly is our contrition. I find anyone who pretends to be privy to other's final thoughts arrogant, judgemental, and lacking of the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860984' date='May 7 2009, 05:21 PM']But people can be judgmental. If someone says "John committed suicide" it doesn't make him look very holy.[/quote] That's a fault of theirs not of the person who has died. I know many people who shout Orthodoxy to the roof tops but lack Orthopraxy. They may look holy or give the appearance of holiness but in truth they are wolves in sheep's clothing. But I don't go around making judgments upon theirs souls. I don't sit there and go "so and so is in the state of mortal sin blah blah blah" That business is left between them, God, and their priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1860985' date='May 7 2009, 05:21 PM']Most of us who are very involved in our parish do much of our sinning publicly. What does not always happen publicly is our contrition. I find anyone who pretends to be privy to other's final thoughts arrogant, judgemental, and lacking of the Holy Spirit.[/quote] But by saying such a person is judgmental you're being judgmental yourself. Edited May 7, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860988' date='May 7 2009, 05:24 PM']But by saying such a person is judgmental you're being judgmental yourself. [/quote] sry, thought you were addressing me lol I will have to come back to this tomorrow. Right now, it's quitting time and I'm going home to hubby and baby. God Bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='StColette' post='1860987' date='May 7 2009, 05:24 PM']That's a fault of theirs not of the person who has died. I know many people who shout Orthodoxy to the roof tops but lack Orthopraxy. They may look holy or give the appearance of holiness but in truth they are wolves in sheep's clothing. But I don't go around making judgments upon theirs souls. I don't sit there and go "so and so is in the state of mortal sin blah blah blah" That business is left between them, God, and their priest.[/quote] In any case, it'd probably be beneficial too the good name of the suicidal to say that he was insane. Seriously, it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoTeckam Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860988' date='May 7 2009, 06:24 PM']But by saying such a person is judgmental you're being judgmental yourself. [/quote] Unlike suicide victims, your argument has left no mystery regarding your thoughts. Even given the evidence of your lack of compassion, I have the good sense to say it is my opinion rather then manipulating cannon law to "support" me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 I wasn't exactly manipulating it. Suicide is a pretty scandalous public grave sin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860979' date='May 7 2009, 05:18 PM']How so? It would keep the people from judging the person to have committed a mortal sin and would preserve his good name.[/quote] I believe that you mentioned before that funerals are not for the living but for the dead. Right here you are making it for the living and not for the dead. A person's health is not on question here. I could see a priest or deacon saying in the homily: "We do not know what was in his/her heart and mind at the time of this horrible incident but we must pray that he rests in peace." Honestly, people should not be judging another individual especially at the time of a funeral. That is ridiculous. And if people are thinking about that then does that make the good Christians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860984' date='May 7 2009, 06:21 PM']But people can be judgmental. If someone says "John committed suicide" it doesn't make him look very holy.[/quote] Well you made that obvious, didn't you. Why is it your business whether someone died holy? Isn't that up to Almighty God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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