CatherineM Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Wow, I hope you guys never have a family member fall into depression and try to hurt themselves. I hope every single thing in your lives go perfectly for you so that you never have to experience pain on the level of someone who loses hope to the point that they can see no hope in life. I give up. You win. I will never be able to convince either of you that the reason these decisions are left up to pastor or bishop is because they are very complicated and required charity and compassion. People who can't find empathy in their hearts and cloak themselves in reading narrow, rigid interpretations of laws and regulations, often fall very hard when something truly tragic happens in their lives. By the way, funerals are more about the surviving family and friends than the deceased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 Funerals are actually mainly about praying for the repose of the soul of the deceased. The funeral Mass itself is, after all, a votive Mass for the dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1860403' date='May 7 2009, 12:44 AM']Wow, I hope you guys never have a family member fall into depression and try to hurt themselves. I hope every single thing in your lives go perfectly for you so that you never have to experience pain on the level of someone who loses hope to the point that they can see no hope in life. I give up. You win. I will never be able to convince either of you that the reason these decisions are left up to pastor or bishop is because they are very complicated and required charity and compassion. People who can't find empathy in their hearts and cloak themselves in reading narrow, rigid interpretations of laws and regulations, often fall very hard when something truly tragic happens in their lives. By the way, funerals are more about the surviving family and friends than the deceased.[/quote] Your emotional form of debate to make us look heartless does not appeal to reason. I'm sorry traditional catholic thought does not jive with modern emotional thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860406' date='May 7 2009, 12:45 AM']Funerals are actually mainly about praying for the repose of the soul of the deceased. The funeral Mass itself is, after all, a votive Mass for the dead.[/quote] Yeap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) "People who can't find empathy in their hearts and cloak themselves in reading narrow, rigid interpretations of laws and regulations, often fall very hard when something truly tragic happens in their lives." nail on the head. those sorts of folks always eventually fall out of their rigid shell. it's just a matter of lack of evolution. they would disagree witht hat, but it's true, and they'll one day see that. also, it is at least debatable that a funeral should be given, sometimes (even besides those rare 'went loopy on meds' 'insane' etc type sceniarios), and therefore the pastor should decide. eg, one's intention in committing an act is always hard to decipher. measuring intention is known for that problem, and thereby culpability etc- the kinda thing only God can know. that's why it's relatively common to speculate that perhaps young kids who masturbate aren't as culpable even if they know it's wrong. (to use catholic argument suicides are actually very sloppy in their life etc. the exact scenarios where speculatio into lessened culpability is warranted. so it might be (read, probably is, in my opinion, i think?) the norm rather than the exception to say 'let's have a burial'. not many put a whole lot of rational thought into a suicide... (a requirement for objective sinful a\ts to be culpable along with degree consideration not to mention. catherine is whompin on resurexi about reading canon law. four corners, and a changed text indicate less emphasis (and approaching none) on 'don't bury the dead'. course, don't try to slide that by the hardest core conservatives around here the ultimate reason these folks are thinking what they do, isn't reasoning or consistency, it's their conservative 'stick it to em' bias showing. that's the only way they could form such inhumane positions. (lack of a decent 'ultimate reason' -- not an uncommon pheonmenon amongst hard core conservatives. (or liberals)) (both empirially "do suicides usually have culpability or usually not-- probably usually not given the traditiona idea of intention and lessened culpability?" and as per how one decides to tackle the uncertainty (do you defer to being a jack@$$ or do you not?) -- their ultimate reasons are simply sad Edited May 7, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 it's been said that 'don't bury them' is 'traditional catholic though'. but, was that even hte custom? or is this just being read on some convulted reading of the old canon? (the most straightforward reading isn't always the right one -- that's not debatable either, and to insist otherwise is indeed convoluted the fact that it was taken out, along with the four corners stuff cathoerine mentioned... shows the 'straightforward' application probably isn't warranted. it was probably just said as the general rule is "if X is in a life of mortal sin, they should repent first before burial" etc. (or even the whole idea of judging them, has been decided to be frowned upon due to an increased sophitication/understanding for God's wisdom and understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1860414' date='May 7 2009, 01:50 AM']Your emotional form of debate to make us look heartless does not appeal to reason. I'm sorry traditional catholic thought does not jive with modern emotional thought.[/quote] Yeah that word about covers it... Church discipline of the burial of suicides has changed because of the advent of modern psychology, and it is up to the discretion of the priest and bishop as to how the burial is performed. Now if you still need to attend some poor suicide's funeral and shout "public sinner disgrace- disgrace! feel free to do so and condemn yourself in the process. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1860799' date='May 7 2009, 01:11 PM']Yeah that word about covers it... Church discipline of the burial of suicides has changed because of the advent of modern psychology, and it is up to the discretion of the priest and bishop as to how the burial is performed. Now if you still need to attend some poor suicide's funeral and shout "public sinner disgrace- disgrace! feel free to do so and condemn yourself in the process. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.[/quote] Very well said. And you wonder why some sincere christians are turned off by religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1859786' date='May 6 2009, 04:39 PM']According to the Code of Canon Law, in certain cases Christian burial is to be denied.[/quote] I was referring specifically to suicide considering that this thread is about suicide. I was not referring to anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860406' date='May 7 2009, 12:45 AM']Funerals are actually mainly about praying for the repose of the soul of the deceased. The funeral Mass itself is, after all, a votive Mass for the dead.[/quote] So we deny people who have committed suicide those prayers if they are Catholic? Some people are not coupable of their sin. Remember that. And we don't know unless we are God. Remember that. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1860414' date='May 7 2009, 12:50 AM']Your emotional form of debate to make us look heartless does not appeal to reason. I'm sorry traditional catholic thought does not jive with modern emotional thought.[/quote] One person does this to you and make a comment about it but I remember several times where you did this too. Funerals and Funeral prayers are for the dead. Not necessarily for the living (unless you want to consider that it is sometimes the only family reunion that people have). However, we never know what is in the person's heart when they take their last breath. Especially if we are not there. I can see denying a Christian burial in for example, Hitler's case. But for every suicide case, there needs to be more considerations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1860836' date='May 7 2009, 02:00 PM']I was referring specifically to suicide considering that this thread is about suicide. I was not referring to anything else.[/quote] Sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that no-one should ever be denied a church funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Know what would be great if we could not make this a personal and emotional debate. I should have never pointed out that it was an appeal to emotion and not reason, but somehow I doubt that would have stopped name calling of Resurrexi and I. Resurrexi and I basically only responded with Catholic documentation that does back our position and boom, we are put down personally via mostly emotional responses. Lets clean this up shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860935' date='May 7 2009, 04:29 PM']Sorry I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that no-one should ever be denied a church funeral.[/quote] Even if it was only about suicide, it would be wrong. Clearly there are in fact cases where a person who commits suicide should be denied a Christian burial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1854009' date='May 1 2009, 01:06 AM']The insane who committed suicide have not historically been denied Christian burial, nor do I think that they should be.[/quote] I did want to address this, since we are in agreement on this point. Who would determine the sanity of a particular person? We know from numerous trials about temporary insanity, would these be included in those not found to be stable? Would a person's mental stability have to be known by all parishioners in order for them to have a Christian burial? I mean, what if others aren't privy to such information and think a public grave sinner is being buried? I don't think it would be appropriate nor I don't think any person would do this, but I don't think it would be right for them to ask their priest about the details of the person's death or medical history. I mean, that's private and could contribute to gossip. I mean if we're going to single out the suicide victims we should also bar adulterers, any form, from having Christian burials as well. Adultery is definitely grave matter, but I don't see anyone jumping on them. I know that's a different topic, but you get my point. If we are going to push that a public grave sinner be denied a Christian burial, then it must apply to all cases. btw I didn't see any name calling, but I could have missed that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) [quote name='StColette' post='1860964' date='May 7 2009, 04:52 PM']I did want to address this, since we are in agreement on this point. Who would determine the sanity of a particular person? We know from numerous trials about temporary insanity, would these be included in those not found to be stable? Would a person's mental stability have to be known by all parishioners in order for them to have a Christian burial? I mean, what if others aren't privy to such information and think a public grave sinner is being buried? I don't think it would be appropriate nor I don't think any person would do this, but I don't think it would be right for them to ask their priest about the details of the person's death or medical history. I mean, that's private and could contribute to gossip. I mean if we're going to single out the suicide victims we should also bar adulterers, any form, from having Christian burials as well. Adultery is definitely grave matter, but I don't see anyone jumping on them. I know that's a different topic, but you get my point. If we are going to push that a public grave sinner be denied a Christian burial, then it must apply to all cases.[/quote] The insanity of a particular suicidal should probably be discussed in the homily at the funeral, in my opinion. That way, if his insanity wasn't previously known, it would then be. As to adulterers, often times the adultery isn't truly public. If the a private unrepentant adulterer dies, then I actually think it would be wrong to deny him an ecclesiastical funeral since doing so would defame him. Edited May 7, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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