StColette Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1848496' date='Apr 26 2009, 12:09 AM']The fact that the new code no longer mentions suicide specifically might be because one who commits suicide is almost always a public grave sinner and when the code was published it would be assumed that everyone would be aware of the Christian custom of forbidding ecclesiastical funeral to suicides.[/quote] Not according to the Church. As pointed previously from the Catechism there are other issues at hand that could have caused a person to take their own life which would greatly diminish their culpability. I believe that it is because of this new understanding from the Church that the Canon excluded the direct reference to suicides. Because if the Church recognizes that some who committed suicide did so because of mental illness, etc. they would not fall under the category of public grave sinner and be denied a Christian burial. It is because suicides are handled each on an individual basis that the specific mention of them was removed from the list of those who are denied Christian burial. If the person is not guilty of a public grave sin by committing suicide, because of mental illness, then how could we deny them a Christian burial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843138' date='Apr 21 2009, 09:45 PM']"Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death." If one is in doubt as to whether there are signs of repentance, there probably aren't any.[/quote] Nobody is disputing the gravity of the matter. However, unless you are like St. Padre Pio and have the gift of reading souls (in which case, you should not be spending your time posting here but instead saving up for a plane ticket to Rome to offer up your services to the Pope), you are not privy to what is going through another person's mind at the moment they take their life. With few exceptions (if any), this is not something an ordinary person can objectively determine like you can the number of planets in our solar system. Edited April 28, 2009 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted April 28, 2009 Share Posted April 28, 2009 [quote name='Norseman82' post='1851608' date='Apr 28 2009, 04:45 PM']the number of planets in our solar system.[/quote] And how long did it take us to determine that? We still can't get it right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 [quote name='Slappo' post='1851621' date='Apr 28 2009, 07:57 PM']And how long did it take us to determine that? We still can't get it right! [/quote] Only because scientists are debating the status of Pluto. But we do know it is more than 4 or 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) [quote name='StColette' post='1851235' date='Apr 28 2009, 11:08 AM']Not according to the Church. As pointed previously from the Catechism there are other issues at hand that could have caused a person to take their own life which would greatly diminish their culpability. I believe that it is because of this new understanding from the Church that the Canon excluded the direct reference to suicides. Because if the Church recognizes that some who committed suicide did so because of mental illness, etc. they would not fall under the category of public grave sinner and be denied a Christian burial. It is because suicides are handled each on an individual basis that the specific mention of them was removed from the list of those who are denied Christian burial. If the person is not guilty of a public grave sin by committing suicide, because of mental illness, then how could we deny them a Christian burial?[/quote] The insane who committed suicide have not historically been denied Christian burial, nor do I think that they should be. Edited May 1, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1854009' date='May 1 2009, 01:06 AM']The insane who committed suicide have not historically been denied Christian burial, nor do I think that they should be.[/quote] Well, I'm glad we agree on this point. With blanketed statements like "all suicides" or "suicides" should be denied Christian burial would include those who suffer from mental disorders. I do wonder how many cases of suicides of seemingly healthy, well balanced people have actual underlying mental disorders that have never been addressed or identified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyChapel Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 In the past, the Church was wary of suicides and for good reason. I agree that normally taking one's own life is a mortal sin. However, most suicides today are caused by mental illness, and the Church is pretty clear that mental illness is a mitigating factor even for a grave offense so I don't believe most suicides these days are mortal sin, although they are still a grave offense. There's a greater understanding among most people of the suffering mental illness can cause a person so I doubt anyone would be scandalized by giving a suicide victim a Christian burial. Actually, I think the opposite might be true. Denying a mentally ill person a Christian burial would probably cause more scandal given the awareness of mental illness these days. There was a Catholic boy named Shane Halligan in my area who walked into his high school one day, took out a gun, and shot himself under the chin. In was a very public suicide but he was certainly not denied a Christian burial. No one objected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSlayer Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 This reminds me of the film Constantine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 I did not have time to read through this whole thread. But I will add my thoughts quickly considering that I don't have that much time on my end of the computer. Ok. Suicide is such a horrible thing for everyone involved. Suicide is total despair of God's love and loss of hope. This is one of the reasons why it is considered a mortal sin. However, if we look at what makes people commit suicide, we might be able to understand just a little bit of what might be in their heart at the time. Many of them have a psychological/biological imbalance and cannot be considered totally accountable for their actions. Furthermore, they might not have had the same connection/bond with God like you or I might have. However, they were baptized Christian/Catholic. One of the main reasons we cannot deny a Christian burial is because we do not know what is in the person's heart. They might have begun the action but in the middle or near the end of their actual suicide they could turn around and be very sorry for their action. We mere humans without God's mind do not know what they were thinking. Bottom line. We are able to give last rights up to a certain point after death. Why? Because if that person was sorry for what they did, they have a right to absolution and forgiveness and God's Mercy. Those are all out there for people as long as they do not deny them. Why would this be any different for someone in a suicide case. I do understand where you are coming from and I also learned that people who commit suicide commit a mortal sin. However, I do not know how much was known of depression, chemical imbalances and so forth. It really is a matter for God to decide in the endwhere the person ended up. It is our responsibility to do what we can to get him to heaven (last rites, burial, and prayers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 [quote name='picchick' post='1859713' date='May 6 2009, 03:36 PM']One of the main reasons we cannot deny a Christian burial is because we do not know what is in the person's heart.[/quote] According to the Code of Canon Law, in certain cases Christian burial is to be denied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1859786' date='May 6 2009, 03:39 PM']According to the Code of Canon Law, in certain cases Christian burial is to be denied.[/quote] Only according to the way you are reading into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 No, according to the obvious meaning of the text: Can. 1184 §1 [i][b][u]Church funeral rites are to be denied to the following[/u][/b][/i], unless they gave some signs of repentance before death: 1° notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics; 2° those who for anti-christian motives chose that their bodies be cremated; 3° other manifest sinners to whom a Church funeral could not be granted without public scandal to the faithful. §2 If any doubt occurs, the local Ordinary is to be consulted and his judgement followed. Can. 1185 Any form of funeral Mass is also to be denied to a person who has been excluded from a Church funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1860333' date='May 6 2009, 11:01 PM']No, according to the obvious meaning of the text: Can. 1184 §1 [i][b][u]Church funeral rites are to be denied to the following[/u][/b][/i], unless they gave some signs of repentance before death: 1° notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics; 2° those who for anti-christian motives chose that their bodies be cremated; 3° other manifest sinners to whom a Church funeral could not be granted without public scandal to the faithful. §2 If any doubt occurs, the local Ordinary is to be consulted and his judgement followed. Can. 1185 Any form of funeral Mass is also to be denied to a person who has been excluded from a Church funeral.[/quote] Again, you are adding something to the Code that is just not there any longer. I'm sorry if you've been upset because the church modified the Code. Had you actually taken a course in Canon Law you would have learned terms such as "Four Corners." You can't read something into a text that is not there, especially when it is something that was specifically removed. Perhaps you should look into scholarly articles on this section by people who are licensed by the church to practice Canon Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 (edited) That's the 1983 Code, not the 1917 Code. You said that I was wrong in stating that Christian burial is to be denied in certain cases (nota bene, I wasn't explicitly mentioning suicide). I replied quoting the canon of the 1983 Code that explicitly states three examples of when ecclesiastical funerals are to be denied. Sorry if you think everyone should always have a church funeral, but Canon Law says differently. Edited May 7, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 "That suicide is unlawful is the teaching of Holy Scripture and of the Church, which condemns the act as a most atrocious crime and, in hatred of the sin and to arouse the horror of its children, denies the suicide Christian burial." If the denial of burial for those that commit suicide is taught in the Holy Scripture, and Holy Tradition then it can not be over turned if Canon Law speaks on the matter or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts