dominicansoul Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1844833' date='Apr 23 2009, 04:58 PM']There are a lot of stories that have been told over and over over the centuries about famous persons that are completely unhistorical...[/quote] I believe Scripture was handed down by word of mouth first. I'm sure the Jews who had enough Faith to believe didn't ask for references... It's sad when your Faith becomes nothing but footnotes and rules. There's more to our Catholic Faith than all that... I for one have always heard this story about St. John Vianney. I won't do him the injustice of not believing it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmc4 Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I do agree with you guys on this one too, but like rkwright I think that sometimes things that are out of that person's control happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1845075' date='Apr 23 2009, 07:22 PM']We are not discussing politicians, we are discussing poor tormented souls who are in such pain that death is preferable. You haven't been there, you haven't a clue, and I hope you never do get to that point. Again, you are not qualified to decide the state of someones soul or if they repented at their moment of death. You are quite good at spouting the letter of the law, but you have no clue to its meaning. Thank God the church is now more merciful than you.[/quote] The point of the Church's legislation on the refusal of Christian burial to unrepentant, grave, public sinners isn't about judging the soul of the person. It's about preventing scandal and keeping others from doing the same things in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843124' date='Apr 21 2009, 09:39 PM']It might give people the false notion that suicide is not a mortal sin.[/quote] I tend to believe that most, if not all, suicides are not in their right minds (it is not really sane to want to end your life... just end the pain that you are suffering), thus I tend to believe that most suicides are not morally culpable. [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843138' date='Apr 21 2009, 09:45 PM']"Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death." If one is in doubt as to whether there are signs of repentance, there probably aren't any.[/quote] How would anyone know what the person is thinking in the last moments of a suicidal person's life? They are generally alone. Only God is there with them, and He knows. I would say it is better to err on the side of compassion, since the heart is known to God alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845312' date='Apr 23 2009, 08:40 PM']The point of the Church's legislation on the refusal of Christian burial to unrepentant, grave, public sinners isn't about judging the soul of the person. It's about preventing scandal and keeping others from doing the same things in the future.[/quote] I had trouble convincing anyone under the age of 80 that they needed to take care of their final affairs. If you can't get people to agree to think about doing a will or pre-planning their funerals to save their children the pain of doing it, what makes you think people are sitting around discussing whether they are going to be allowed a church funeral or not? Do you really think someone who is so despondent that they are thinking about harming themselves, will say to themselves, I can't do this because I will cause scandal and not be allowed a mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845312' date='Apr 23 2009, 10:40 PM']The point of the Church's legislation on the refusal of Christian burial to unrepentant, grave, public sinners isn't about judging the soul of the person. It's about preventing scandal and keeping others from doing the same things in the future.[/quote] You don't know if they were unrepentent because they were with God at their last moment not you. You don't know if it were grave or how public or even if they were a sinner because you don't know what is in their mind or circumstances, only God does. That is the whole point, you don't know. People know suicide is wrong, but you are not there in their mind when they get to to point that death is preferable to the screaming agony located in their mind/body/soul. We are not talking laws or theory here, we are talking flesh and blood and flawed human beings. I hope to God, you never know. In the meantime instead of thinking of laws and canons, think of compassion and mercy and the loving heart of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 I don't think that the loving and merciful God desires people do be led astray by what seems to be implicit acceptance of the morality of suicide on the part of the Church by giving one who has taken his own life funeral rites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845640' date='Apr 24 2009, 01:42 AM']I don't think that the loving and merciful God desires people to be led astray by what seems to be implicit acceptance of the morality of suicide on the part of the Church by giving one who has taken his own life funeral rites.[/quote] Nobody ever said relying on the mercy of God and not our own self-righteous opinions is an implicit acceptance of suicide. Never mind - you simply don't get it. Maybe that will come with age and pain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845640' date='Apr 23 2009, 08:42 PM']I don't think that the loving and merciful God desires people do be led astray by what seems to be implicit acceptance of the morality of suicide on the part of the Church by giving one who has taken his own life funeral rites.[/quote] Ressurexi, Please cite sources saying that a person who committed suicide receiving a Christian burial would cause scandal. Make it magisterial too since that holds more weight. I wouldn't be scandalized by a suicide Christian funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 Legal continuity. Under the 1917 Code, Christian burial of suicides was forbidden in specie. Many laws were simplified in the 1984 Code, and it would seem that this is one of them. Specific mention of suicides in no longer made but "manifest sinners to whom an ecclesiastical funeral could not be granted without public scandal to the faithful" are mentioned. Thus it would follow that those who wrote the Code considered burial of suicides something that would cause scandal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 (edited) [quote name='StColette' post='1843527' date='Apr 22 2009, 12:44 PM']I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that Scandal and the Church go hand in hand. Please, explain this theory.[/quote] Godbless Stcolette, It's not a theory but a uncharitable unthought out responce to b.s. like everyone who commited sucicide is in mortal sin and doesnt deserve a christian burial. Edited April 24, 2009 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 24, 2009 Author Share Posted April 24, 2009 Excuse me, but suicide [i]is[/i], objectively speaking, a mortal sin. And Christian burial was explicitly forbidden under ecclesiastical law for more than 1500 years, and if you have a problem with that, take it up with the Popes (many of whom are now Saints) who made and upheld that legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845734' date='Apr 24 2009, 04:07 AM']Excuse me, but suicide [i]is[/i], objectively speaking, a mortal sin. And Christian burial was explicitly forbidden under ecclesiastical law for more than 1500 years, and if you have a problem with that, take it up with the Popes (many of whom are now Saints) who made and upheld that legislation.[/quote] cool homeboy peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845715' date='Apr 24 2009, 03:22 AM']Legal continuity. Under the 1917 Code, Christian burial of suicides was forbidden in specie. Many laws were simplified in the 1984 Code, and it would seem that this is one of them. Specific mention of suicides in no longer made but "manifest sinners to whom an ecclesiastical funeral could not be granted without public scandal to the faithful" are mentioned. Thus it would follow that those who wrote the Code considered burial of suicides something that would cause scandal.[/quote] It only follows in your mind. Its up to the Church to decide what is a public scandal and what is not and administer the mercy of God. With todays understanding of mental illness, mercy is what is on the Churchs mind. As CatherineM said, maybe you should go volunteer in a mental hospital or a hospice, and learn the living of suffering and the meaning of compassion. St Paul talks over and over about it and makes his point in Cor 13:1 IF I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. Following the letter of the law, without the passionate love of Christ behind the law, is not christian. As with unbaptised babies, we commit suicides to the utter mercy of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1845734' date='Apr 24 2009, 04:07 AM']Excuse me, but suicide [i]is[/i], objectively speaking, a mortal sin. And Christian burial was explicitly forbidden under ecclesiastical law for more than 1500 years, and if you have a problem with that, take it up with the Popes (many of whom are now Saints) who made and upheld that legislation.[/quote] Objectively speaking, yes suicide is grave matter, but one must apply this to each situation individually. If a person who is mental unstable, incapable of making decisions, commits suicide, their culpability would be greatly diminished. If this situation were to present itself, which I believe most suicide cases are like this, the victim would not be guilty of mortal sin. As I stated previously, there are three criteria for mortal sin and all three must be meet for someone to have committed a mortal sin. If they are not guilty of mortal sin then they should be granted a Christian burial, though it should be done quietly which most families want anyway. I believe each case should definitely be handled on an individual basis. I know from working in a parish office that the priests know which parishioners have mental illnesses and have most likely dealt with them on an individual basis. So I believe that this should be the priest's call and not ours. We don't know the "behind" the scenes stuff that went on, etc. so it's not right for us to stand in judgment. I trust my priests, which are both very Orthodox, to make the right decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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