Suicide

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1843127' date='Apr 21 2009, 09:40 PM']The entire Canon you quoted: #1184 §1 Church funeral rites are to be denied to the following, [b]unless they gave some signs of repentance before death[/b]:
1° notorious apostates, heretics and schismatics;
2° those who for anti-christian motives chose that their bodies be cremated;
3° other manifest sinners to whom a Church funeral could not be granted without public scandal to the faithful.

§2[b] If any doubt occurs, the local Ordinary is to be consulted and his judgment followed.[/b][/quote]

"Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death." If one is in doubt as to whether there are signs of repentance, there probably aren't any.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Guest]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843138' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:45 PM']"Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death." If one is in doubt as to whether there are signs of repentance, there probably aren't any.[/quote]

lol

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843138' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:45 PM']"Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death." If one is in doubt as to whether there are signs of repentance, there probably aren't any.[/quote]

I guess I'm glad you won't be the one in judgment of my life.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1843144' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:48 PM']I guess I'm glad you won't be the one in judgment of my life.[/quote]


No kidding~

[rkwright]

While I mostly agree with you Res, you can't deny something like Catherine's Hypo.

Say if someone stops taking their meds and decides through hallucination they need to die?

[Resurrexi]

The canon clearly says unless the suicidal person shows signs of repentance. I guess psychological factors [i]could[/i] be a reason as well, but I have oft seen this abused. It ends up being that everyone who commits suicide is for some reason for another allowed a Catholic funeral. This defeats the purpose of the law, which is to avoid scandal and to deter people from committing suicide in the future.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Resurrexi

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1843147' date='Apr 21 2009, 08:50 PM']While I mostly agree with you Res, you can't deny something like Catherine's Hypo.

Say if someone stops taking their meds and decides through hallucination they need to die?[/quote]

I agree both with Res and with the text Catherine posted. I think in general, in most cases where there isn't reasonable doubt, a Christian burial should be withheld.

As for the hypothetical you give, I think its definitely possible (though not sure what the Church would say) that if someone is supposed to be taking medication specifically guarding against certain ailments that could cause a suicide, and they don't take the medication then I think that is reasonable evidence that they weren't in clear control of their thoughts and intentions when they committed the suicide, thus it probably wouldn't be considered a mortal sin as full intent of the will needs to be given, and this can't occur if one's head isn't in the right place.

[Guest]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843160' date='Apr 21 2009, 09:59 PM']The canon clearly says unless the suicidal person shows signs of repentance. I guess psychological factors [i]could[/i] be a reason as well, but I have oft seen this abused. It ends up being that everyone who commits suicide is for some reason for another allowed a Catholic funeral. This defeats the purpose of the law, which is to avoid scandal and to deter people from committing suicide in the future.[/quote]

I like that angle and it's tough to argue against. Esspially the part about future people not doing in the future. Although I think someone who is actually driven to commit sucide can only be judged by God. Sure if someone is like I want to die and go chill on the streets of gold, that is a selfish reason to kill yourself. And anyone who would do that would not likely be chilling on streets of gold. On the contrary though I would assume alot of the people who commit suicide have a much deeper reason then that for doing such a terrible thing to themselves and their souls.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Guest

[Slappo]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843138' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:45 PM']"Unless they gave some signs of repentance before death." If one is in doubt as to whether there are signs of repentance, there probably aren't any.[/quote]

Would it necessarily cause scandal for a suicide case to be granted a Christian funeral? I don't think it would be scandal for a mental patient who committed suicide to receive a Christian funeral.

The Canon does not specify that the doubt refers to signs of repentance. The doubt could also refer to whether or not public scandal would be caused.

[VoTeckam]

I can not wrap my mind around this. Imagine the immence sorrow and desperation someone must feel to take their own life. Allowing people we know and should love to reach this point is as much our grave sin as their own. So what of our Christian burials?

[Maggyie]

I have never heard of a modern case in which a suicide was denied a funeral Mass or Christian burial. That's because we are blessed with better understanding of psychology and mental illness.

Suicide is ordinarily a mortal sin but for it to be mortal, full consent of the will must be present and in VERY few cases of suicide is that the case. The inclination for self-preservation is so strong that overcoming it indicates deep mental illness that destroys the ability to give full consent to one's actions.

[Noel's angel]

Let's deny everyone whom we suspect of being in a state of mortal sin a Christian burial....I'm afraid there would be many empty graveyards.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Noel's angel

[StColette]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1843125' date='Apr 21 2009, 09:39 PM']Scandel and church go hand in hand. Were all sinners.[/quote]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that Scandal and the Church go hand in hand. Please, explain this theory.

As for the topic at hand. We must keep in mind what constitutes a mortal sin. Remember there are three criteria, and all three must be met for it to be considered a mortal sin.

* Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
* Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
* Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

I would say that the great majority of suicide cases are lacking "full knowledge of the sinner" and/or "deliberate consent of the sinner". In the cases involving mental illness, I would say that a person's "full knowledge" would be greatly lacking. A lot of mental illness patients do not have an ability to make choices based on sound judgment. I could not see denying a suicide victim a Christian burial especially if a case of mental illness is known.

Quite frankly we have no way of knowing what was going through the mind of the suicide victim. Only God knows what this person was thinking. I mean really what if at their last breath they realized what they did was wrong and repented. We really have no positive way of knowing. In any case involving suicide prayers are definitely needed for all involved, that is a fact.

[pat22]

my friend's boss committed suicide two days ago. please play for her.

Edited April 23, 2009 by pat22

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1843160' date='Apr 21 2009, 10:59 PM']The canon clearly says unless the suicidal person shows signs of repentance. I guess psychological factors [i]could[/i] be a reason as well, but I have oft seen this abused. It ends up being that everyone who commits suicide is for some reason for another allowed a Catholic funeral. This defeats the purpose of the law, which is to avoid scandal and to deter people from committing suicide in the future.[/quote]
You are not qualified to know if the person had any signs of repentance, or to judge the state of someone's soul or to know if the canon is abused in any way. So just don't go there.