Catholic Funerals

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://www.stjudefw.org/liturgy/funerals.html"]http://www.stjudefw.org/liturgy/funerals.html[/url]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1850306' date='Apr 27 2009, 04:26 PM']What is the Church's definition of an "ecclesiastical" or "Catholic" funeral? I have never been to a funeral so I am not familiar with them. If someone cannot receive a "Catholic" funeral, what kind of funeral can they receive, and what distinguishes that funeral from a Catholic funeral?[/quote]

An "ecclesiastical funeral" is any funeral carried out according to the Church's rite of burial. It often, but not always, includes a votive Mass for the soul of the deceased.

[Aloysius]

one thing that disturbs me about the thought line "I can't imagine anyone would be of sound mind and do something like this"... it begins to beg the question for pretty much every atrocity any human being ever commits. How can you be of sound mind and be a mass murderer? How can you be of sound mind and commit genocide? How can you be of sound mind and torture someone? well... all of these people all must have some mitigating mental disease and therefore the canons aren't applicable to them!

then who, pray tell, are they applicable to? who is a "a manifest sinner" who "cannot be granted [an] ecclesiastical funeral without scandal for the faithful" if everyone who does these things is doing them because of a mental disorder?

while psychology has much to teach us, we cannot agree with the idea that all murderous acts are based solely upon psychological illness. we cannot simply excuse all monstrous crimes as symptoms of psychological illness. I am not saying I know where to draw the line in the sand... except that I'd draw the line in the sand against giving a Catholic funeral to someone who killed their whole family and then themselves.

[eagle_eye222001]

I originally voted "yes" thinking that the Church shouldn't be deciding as there are instances of mentally instablity, however after reading through the comments, I would have wished I would have at least voted "I'm not sure"

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[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1850347' date='Apr 27 2009, 05:55 PM']one thing that disturbs me about the thought line "I can't imagine anyone would be of sound mind and do something like this"... it begins to beg the question for pretty much every atrocity any human being ever commits. How can you be of sound mind and be a mass murderer? How can you be of sound mind and commit genocide? How can you be of sound mind and torture someone? well... all of these people all must have some mitigating mental disease and therefore the canons aren't applicable to them!

then who, pray tell, are they applicable to? who is a "a manifest sinner" who "cannot be granted [an] ecclesiastical funeral without scandal for the faithful" if everyone who does these things is doing them because of a mental disorder?

while psychology has much to teach us, we cannot agree with the idea that all murderous acts are based solely upon psychological illness. we cannot simply excuse all monstrous crimes as symptoms of psychological illness. I am not saying I know where to draw the line in the sand... except that I'd draw the line in the sand against giving a Catholic funeral to someone who killed their whole family and then themselves.[/quote]
I doubt anyone here would say that all atrocities stem from psychological illness.
Evil is a constant presence in the world. I dont know how sound someone's mind can be if they commit an atrocity, but I bet many of them are not certifiably crazy. Someone had something they wanted and they killed to take it, some are so egotistical they can't imagine their family surviving without them so they slaughter them all. And its a 20th century fallacy that says all humans are really good and a] hard life, b]evil parents, c]bad job etc makes them do bad things.

[TeresaBenedicta]

I don't understand why we wouldn't give them a Catholic funeral... Regardless of the sin committed, we can still hope and pray for their salvation. I hope and pray that Judas is in Heaven. Those who have committed such atrocities need our prayers as much as anyone else, as we pray and hope that they are in purgatory.

[Resurrexi]

"O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..." (Collect of the Mass of the Lord's Supper in the extraordinary form)

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1852696' date='Apr 29 2009, 11:28 PM']I don't understand why we wouldn't give them a Catholic funeral... Regardless of the sin committed, we can still hope and pray for their salvation. I hope and pray that Judas is in Heaven. Those who have committed such atrocities need our prayers as much as anyone else, as we pray and hope that they are in purgatory.[/quote]

They need our prayers yes, but I can't see giving them a funeral on the same par with the victims or at the same time . It would have to be some small private affair, with only the people who could bear to come.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1852805' date='Apr 30 2009, 12:53 AM']"O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..." (Collect of the Mass of the Lord's Supper in the extraordinary form)[/quote]
I noticed that at mass this year and briefly recalled how Judas is often brought up when people are trying to make the point that the Church has never definitively said anyone was in hell... and I wondered if it couldn't be said that through her liturgical rites she actually has said that Judas is in hell?... but then the question is: was the punishment hell or purgatory until the end of time? I am of the opinion that it was probably hell, Our Lord doesn't go around saying of too many people that it would be better for them if they had never been born. plus, the liturgical rite does juxtapose the Good Thief's reward (which was certainly heaven) with Judas's punishment as if they were opposites... it's very hard for me to not classify Judas as the one human being which we do know went to hell.

cmom, yeah I know no one would say that, I was just going off the train of thought. the idea was no one could kill their whole family and then themselves without having some mitigating psychological factor... and I'm wondering how true that really is... I think someone could do it and be very culpable for it. of course, the line of reasoning ad absurdum would be to say that all evil doing is a result of psychological illnesses.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853313' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:19 PM']I noticed that at mass this year and briefly recalled how Judas is often brought up when people are trying to make the point that the Church has never definitively said anyone was in hell... and I wondered if it couldn't be said that through her liturgical rites she actually has said that Judas is in hell?... but then the question is: was the punishment hell or purgatory until the end of time? I am of the opinion that it was probably hell, Our Lord doesn't go around saying of too many people that it would be better for them if they had never been born. plus, the liturgical rite does juxtapose the Good Thief's reward (which was certainly heaven) with Judas's punishment as if they were opposites... it's very hard for me to not classify Judas as the one human being which we do know went to hell.

cmom, yeah I know no one would say that, I was just going off the train of thought. the idea was no one could kill their whole family and then themselves without having some mitigating psychological factor... and I'm wondering how true that really is... I think someone could do it and be very culpable for it. of course, the line of reasoning ad absurdum would be to say that all evil doing is a result of psychological illnesses.[/quote]

Not all murder has a psychological basis of course, but I do think someone slaughtering their own children does.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853295' date='Apr 30 2009, 03:12 PM']They need our prayers yes, but I can't see giving them a funeral on the same par with the victims or at the same time . It would have to be some small private affair, with only the people who could bear to come.[/quote]

I don't think I can see giving them a funeral at the same time as the victims... but I can see no reason why we ought to "hide" their funeral. If someone can't bear it to come, then they ought not come. But it should be a public funeral so that the public can pray for them.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1853541' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:24 PM']I don't think I can see giving them a funeral at the same time as the victims... but I can see no reason why we ought to "hide" their funeral. If someone can't bear it to come, then they ought not come. But it should be a public funeral so that the public can pray for them.[/quote]
Church funerals are public, but it certainly wouuldn't be advertised in the paper or news.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853295' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:12 PM']They need our prayers yes, but I can't see giving them a funeral on the same par with the victims or at the same time . It would have to be some small private affair, with only the people who could bear to come.[/quote]

That's exactly how I see it as well. The victims should be the focus. The perpetrator should be buried quietly and separately, leaving the judgments up to God's wisdom.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1853543' date='Apr 30 2009, 05:26 PM']Church funerals are public, but it certainly wouuldn't be advertised in the paper or news.[/quote]

Are funerals usually, or is that simply an option that the family can choose? I think it should be in any normal church bulletin, though. Whatever normal protocal is.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1853313' date='Apr 30 2009, 01:19 PM']cmom, yeah I know no one would say that, I was just going off the train of thought. the idea was no one could kill their whole family and then themselves without having some mitigating psychological factor... and I'm wondering how true that really is... I think someone could do it and be very culpable for it. of course, the line of reasoning ad absurdum would be to say that all evil doing is a result of psychological illnesses.[/quote]

I was thinking about the differences between someone who kills their family and them themselves, and someone like John Listz who killed his family, and then just went off and started a new life for himself. Totally different. Also different those who kill their kids in a custody dispute just to hurt their ex.