Human Nature And The Afterlife

[Dr_Asik]

Again, I thank Raphaël for his answer to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=92691"][b]my question on the original sin[/b][/url]. It’s a bit awkward that I’m forbidden to give any follow-up to his answer in the original thread, so this question is basically my reply. Maybe after replying you can transfer it to the transmundane lane forum so that we can pursue the discussion, but I'd appreciate a phatmass scholar answer.

First, when I said there were two ways to look at the question (physical/spiritual), I did not mean to say they were unrelated. I was mainly just trying to put myself in context and organize my thoughts as I wrote.

What I really want to understand is this:
[quote name='"Raphael"']This is exactly the point. We are out of sync with creation. We are made to live in the heights of the angels with God, but we prefer to dwell in the dirt with the pigs. Yet despite our sins and the place where they put us, we long for God and face the confusion of searching for our purpose and the meaning of our lives. Animals finish their hunting and activities and go to sleep, but we finish our work and stay up pondering something higher.[/quote]
You say we prefer to dwell in the dirt with the pigs. Yet we are made out of dirt, as says Genesis. God took some dirt, shaped it and breathed life in it.

We cannot aspire to the life of the angels, because we’re not angels, it would be a disorder. Every being that has been created has a specific purpose, and it is happy when it lives according to that purpose. Birds are made to sing and fly and build nests for their offspring, and angels are made to praise God 24/7 and carry out his desires. Stars just burn until they vanish or explode. Humans build cities, do research on nature, speak in various languages, create beauty for its own sake (art), etc. We have hands to hold and push and squeeze and manipulate objects very precisely. We have legs to walk and run, we’ve got an advanced brain to abstract and analyze and feel and create.

What I’ve learned in reading Aquinas, and through him, Aristotelian philosophy, is that we learn about the purpose of beings by understanding their nature. Look at how a fly is made, that tells you its purpose. Now, humans are made of dirt, hence their purpose must have something to do with dirt. Not really dirt, of course: but material things. There would be no point to be material if not to interact with the material world.

And one of the reasons I admire Catholic doctrine is that it seems to acknowledge this point. “Belief in the resurrection of the dead has been an essential element of the Christian faith from its beginnings.” (991) “God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus' Resurrection.” (997) This seems similar to the state of “original justice” which we previously discussed: “As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.” (376) Catholic doctrine rightly sees the human body as integral to our nature, and our ultimate destiny seems not to be like angels, but like corporeal beings.

But then I’m not sure it realizes the implications of incorruptibility. The ancients thought that the planets and stars were incorruptible material beings, but science has discovered that there is no such thing as an incorruptible material being. Everything in this world has come to be from an initial chaotic soup, and everything may very well return to it. The reason we are corruptible is not that we are imperfect or weak; the reason is the very fact that we are material. Look at the tissues that form our body: their structure and properties make it so that they can be torn and broken. The reason we can feel pain is not a disorder: on the contrary, the ability to feel pain is the result of a very useful system that makes us aware of our physical problems and react accordingly. Corruptibility is, in fact, essential to our proper functioning: new skin replaces dead skin, new hair replace lost hair, etc. Most of the cells in our body are periodically replaced.

An incorruptible body, if that is even possible, would function in a radically different way. And the problem about that is that we would hardly have anything in common with what we were before death. How can you say we are still humans after the resurrection of the body? Humans are not any kind of material living thing; they are made in a very specific way. As we know, a 1% difference in DNA separates us from chimpanzees, so try and figure out what incorruptibility would do to our identity.

Catholic doctrine tries to make it appear as if corruptibility was an accident in us, and that our original and ultimate destiny is to live eternally. But that can only be false. Corruptibility derives from the very fact that we are part of this world where everything is made of matter and can eventually be destroyed. And living eternally poses great problems. What about our sexuality? God made us male and female, and this is fundamental to our nature(CCC 355). But in Paradise, it doesn’t mean anything: as Jesus himself said, people do not marry in the afterlife. But what’s the point of being male and female if not to marry and have children? There is none. And what’s the point of eating if we cannot experience hunger? And what’s the point of sleeping if we cannot experience fatigue? Basically our bodies will be useless, and we’ll be just like angels, bathing in God’s glory forever and ever. But that brings us back to case 1! We are not angels, this cannot be our destiny!

You said we are confused about the purpose of our lives. It is true that, when we face death, a death that completely annihilates us, we (at least I) feel panicked. It seems it cannot end like this: otherwise, what have we worked for? All our relationships broken, all our memories lost, and, as says Ecclesiastes, our work may very well go to a fool who will destroy it so ultimately all will have been in vain. Even if we transmit something to our children, humanity as a whole will be destroyed at some point.

But the more I think about it, the more I realize this is a fate we must accept. Even if there is an afterlife, it’s nothing like this life: in effect, death will always be death, we really lose everything including what we are and everything we’ve worked for. And in this view, afterlife merely becomes a potential bonus, one we don’t necessarily need in order to give meaning to our lives. Our lives must have a meaning even if we are to be utterly destroyed, because that’s an inevitable fate, even in Catholic doctrine. Yes, in Catholic doctrine, we survive in some other form, but it has barely anything to do with what we were before death.

I guess I have to ask a question at some point if I’m to expect an answer, so here’s the summary:

Why does Catholic doctrine says our real destiny is not in this world, since we are made out of this world and for this world? What can our afterlife form have to do with our present form – how is our identity preserved if we suddenly become incorporeal and later incorruptible?

Thanks.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Thanks, I will sit on this for a few days and try to get back to you in a timely manner. In the meantime, allow me to explain why you can't reply to your own thread. Only Church Scholars can reply to threads in this subforum and that is simply a precaution to make sure that serious questions about the faith are answered only by those with a background/degree in theology.

If you would like to discuss it more freely, I can combine the threads and move them to Transmundane Lane. There we could have an open discussion, but we could ask others not to post in the thread, if you like.

In the meantime, let me just say generally that from briefly glancing at the post, you seem to be not far off from my own understanding of the faith. I want to clarify something for you for now, namely, that when I spoke of man preferring dirt to angelic living, I was being more poetic than literal. I simply meant that we humans were made to live with God's own life, but we settle for so much less.

God bless,

Micah

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1839764' date='Apr 18 2009, 03:32 PM']Again, I thank Raphaël for his answer to [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=92691"][b]my question on the original sin[/b][/url]. It’s a bit awkward that I’m forbidden to give any follow-up to his answer in the original thread, so this question is basically my reply. Maybe after replying you can transfer it to the transmundane lane forum so that we can pursue the discussion, but I'd appreciate a phatmass scholar answer.

First, when I said there were two ways to look at the question (physical/spiritual), I did not mean to say they were unrelated. I was mainly just trying to put myself in context and organize my thoughts as I wrote.

What I really want to understand is this:

You say we prefer to dwell in the dirt with the pigs. Yet we are made out of dirt, as says Genesis. God took some dirt, shaped it and breathed life in it.

We cannot aspire to the life of the angels, because we’re not angels, it would be a disorder. Every being that has been created has a specific purpose, and it is happy when it lives according to that purpose. Birds are made to sing and fly and build nests for their offspring, and angels are made to praise God 24/7 and carry out his desires. Stars just burn until they vanish or explode. Humans build cities, do research on nature, speak in various languages, create beauty for its own sake (art), etc. We have hands to hold and push and squeeze and manipulate objects very precisely. We have legs to walk and run, we’ve got an advanced brain to abstract and analyze and feel and create.

What I’ve learned in reading Aquinas, and through him, Aristotelian philosophy, is that we learn about the purpose of beings by understanding their nature. Look at how a fly is made, that tells you its purpose. Now, humans are made of dirt, hence their purpose must have something to do with dirt. Not really dirt, of course: but material things. There would be no point to be material if not to interact with the material world.

And one of the reasons I admire Catholic doctrine is that it seems to acknowledge this point. “Belief in the resurrection of the dead has been an essential element of the Christian faith from its beginnings.” (991) “God, in his almighty power, will definitively grant incorruptible life to our bodies by reuniting them with our souls, through the power of Jesus' Resurrection.” (997) This seems similar to the state of “original justice” which we previously discussed: “As long as he remained in the divine intimacy, man would not have to suffer or die.” (376) Catholic doctrine rightly sees the human body as integral to our nature, and our ultimate destiny seems not to be like angels, but like corporeal beings.[/quote]

When I mentioned the angels, I was being poetic more than literal, but you bring up an interesting point. What is our eventual purpose, or what will we do in heaven? The Book of Revelation seems to make it quite clear that we will praise God, and it is equally clear that we will do so in a physical way. So the angels worship God as spirits, but we worship God as incarnate spirits, which brings up an interesting theological question which has never been resolved, if sin had never occurred, would God still have become incarnate? The Franciscan tradition says that He would, whereas other theological traditions tend to disagree (personally, I'm with the Franciscans...even if the Incarnation was not necessary for Redemption, it still would most perfect and fitting for God to become man so that man could worship God in a fuller way more in line with his nature). We have a nature of body and soul, and so we worship God as the angels do, but we do so not only in spirit as they do, but also in body.

[quote]But then I’m not sure it realizes the implications of incorruptibility. The ancients thought that the planets and stars were incorruptible material beings, but science has discovered that there is no such thing as an incorruptible material being. Everything in this world has come to be from an initial chaotic soup, and everything may very well return to it. The reason we are corruptible is not that we are imperfect or weak; the reason is the very fact that we are material. Look at the tissues that form our body: their structure and properties make it so that they can be torn and broken. The reason we can feel pain is not a disorder: on the contrary, the ability to feel pain is the result of a very useful system that makes us aware of our physical problems and react accordingly. Corruptibility is, in fact, essential to our proper functioning: new skin replaces dead skin, new hair replace lost hair, etc. Most of the cells in our body are periodically replaced.[/quote]

You say that our corruptibility comes not from imperfection or weakness, but from the fact that we are material, but the question becomes, "why is matter corruptible?" Science would answer that it is due to the interactions of materials, thus electrons are stripped from one atom and go to another, water and the force behind it corrode mountains into sand, etc., but again, it is perfectly within God's ability, since He is the Creator of nature and nature's laws, to make it possible that man would not be corrupted or die. If God wished, He could make a way for materials to interact without corruption.

[quote]An incorruptible body, if that is even possible, would function in a radically different way. And the problem about that is that we would hardly have anything in common with what we were before death. How can you say we are still humans after the resurrection of the body? Humans are not any kind of material living thing; they are made in a very specific way. As we know, a 1% difference in DNA separates us from chimpanzees, so try and figure out what incorruptibility would do to our identity.[/quote]

First, I'd like to point out as a caveat: "Beloved, we are God's children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is" (1 John 3:2). We can't know precisely what's involved in a glorified body, but we accept in faith that we will know and understand in due time. In the meantime, we can see what Christ is after the Resurrection and make some conclusions from that, namely, that He can pass through walls, that His wounds are healed, etc. We can see from the lives of saints what kinds of things they've shown...bilocation, for instance, the miraculous phenomenon by which some saints (notably St. Pio of Pietrelcina) have been in two places at once. I would prefer, as I believe I said earlier, to argue from the view that as a glorified person, man will once more reign over creation and not be subjected to the laws of physics. Christ's glorified body is often seen as a human body completely intertwined with His human soul (and with His divine nature). That those who are raised from the dead in Christ will also share this state (including sharing in the divine nature) has always been a part of Christian faith. No one is arguing that our DNA will be any different than it is now, except, perhaps, that genes responsible for disabilities will either be non-existent or somehow neutralized. Our identity will not be different. First, our souls, our personages, will be the same as they always were, except made perfect, and the bodies will be made perfect as well, but always the perfect versions of themselves. Many do not become Christian because they are afraid of losing who they are; there is a common viewpoint that all Christians are somehow supposed to be the same, but nothing could be further than the truth. A quick survey of the saints will show that all of them retained their personalities, but became holier versions of themselves.

[quote]Catholic doctrine tries to make it appear as if corruptibility was an accident in us, and that our original and ultimate destiny is to live eternally. But that can only be false. Corruptibility derives from the very fact that we are part of this world where everything is made of matter and can eventually be destroyed.[/quote]

Catholic doctrine does not make corruptibility accidental. On the contrary, corruptibility is the direct result of a choice to cut the human race off from the only source of immortality and incorruptibility. We were immune, so to speak, from corruptibility. Science can't explain it, but we believe it nonetheless.

[quote]And living eternally poses great problems. What about our sexuality? God made us male and female, and this is fundamental to our nature(CCC 355). But in Paradise, it doesn’t mean anything: as Jesus himself said, people do not marry in the afterlife. But what’s the point of being male and female if not to marry and have children? There is none.[/quote]

Male and female do not marry in heaven because in heaven, they are married to God. A spiritual union between all God's holy ones and Himself takes place, such that marriage as we know it would have no purpose. The Church teaches that marriage as we know it is only a temporary shadow of the full, true, eternal marriage between Christ and the Church. Nonetheless, masculinity and femininity do come into the equation, even in heaven, because they are part of our identity and God relates to us (at least partly) on the basis of who we are. So while children may not be possible in heaven, that is only because sexuality will serve a higher purpose.

[quote]And what’s the point of eating if we cannot experience hunger?[/quote]

If there is food in heaven, we will eat it for pleasure, not for hunger. However, I suspect we will be too busy adoring God and being caught up in love for Him.

[quote]And what’s the point of sleeping if we cannot experience fatigue?[/quote]

Who said we would sleep in heaven?

[quote]Basically our bodies will be useless, and we’ll be just like angels, bathing in God’s glory forever and ever. But that brings us back to case 1! We are not angels, this cannot be our destiny![/quote]

There is a difference. Consider that God wishes to draw all creation to Himself (the God who is perfect Unity wishes to be one with all His creation). Human beings are the only creatures capable of giving consent on behalf of creation. God does not force Himself. Thus the implications of the Blessed Virgin's acceptance of God's will as well as Christ's and all His saints' bears a far greater weight in view of eternity than it would seem when we consider them by themselves. Angels are not material, they cannot offer material to God. Animals are material without spirit, they do not have reason and free will in order to offer material to God. Only through the consent of mankind can mankind, and all the created world man represents, be united with God in love. This is what worship is: turning oneself over to God out of love, obeying His will. Heaven is an eternity of worship. Man's body serves an eternal purpose in offering to God the whole of human nature, and in a way, the whole of creation.

[quote]You said we are confused about the purpose of our lives. It is true that, when we face death, a death that completely annihilates us, we (at least I) feel panicked. It seems it cannot end like this: otherwise, what have we worked for? All our relationships broken, all our memories lost, and, as says Ecclesiastes, our work may very well go to a fool who will destroy it so ultimately all will have been in vain. Even if we transmit something to our children, humanity as a whole will be destroyed at some point.

But the more I think about it, the more I realize this is a fate we must accept. Even if there is an afterlife, it’s nothing like this life: in effect, death will always be death, we really lose everything including what we are and everything we’ve worked for. And in this view, afterlife merely becomes a potential bonus, one we don’t necessarily need in order to give meaning to our lives. Our lives must have a meaning even if we are to be utterly destroyed, because that’s an inevitable fate, even in Catholic doctrine. Yes, in Catholic doctrine, we survive in some other form, but it has barely anything to do with what we were before death.[/quote]

This is where you are missing what Catholic doctrine says. Jesus' answer to the constant theme of Ecclesiastes is that we should seek first the Kingdom of God. When we deny ourselves, die to ourselves, death has no power. When we seek God first and care nothing about our worldly things, death is only a doorway to eternal life, and if we spend our lives faithfully loving God and worshiping Him, we will still have to die and leave everything to others, but we will die better versions of ourselves, and through our purgation (in purgatory), we will be perfect versions of ourselves. So no, against your last sentence, we don't survive in some other form that is barely comparable to what we were before death, rather, those things that make us lack the fullness of our true form are filled in and we become as God meant us to be. It is similar to the distinction between good and evil. They are not two different entities (if evil could be called a thing in itself, it would have to be a part of creation, but God doesn't do evil), but evil is a lack of goodness. So we are not a separate form from what we shall be in heaven; we are an imperfect, incomplete form of what God intends us to be. So the meaning of our lives should be to try to be what God made us to be, that is, to try to be holy in the way that only each one of us can be holy, by being authentically ourselves as we are supposed to be in Christ.

[quote]Why does Catholic doctrine says our real destiny is not in this world, since we are made out of this world and for this world? What can our afterlife form have to do with our present form – how is our identity preserved if we suddenly become incorporeal and later incorruptible?[/quote]


I'm hoping that I've already answered all of this, but in the interest of providing a concise conclusion: our destiny is not in this world, but our destiny does involve the identity we develop and perfect in this world. If God had made us in heaven straightaway, first, we would never have had a chance to chose otherwise (and thus, we would never truly be loving Him), and second, we would not have been able to be, in some way, co-creators of ourselves. Life on earth allows us to take a role in forming who we become, something the angels never had the chance to do. I like to consider that a gift. As for our identity, simply consider that it is not replaced in heaven, but perfected. Aside from that, I cannot speak with scientific knowledge about what we shall be and what it entails. I know only that I do not know.

God bless,

Micah

[Dr_Asik]

Thanks again for the thoughtful and detailed answer. I could say a lot of more or less constructive comments but what bothers me the most in your response is how lightly you take my questions on the purpose of our body in heaven. Sexuality will "serve a higher purpose". We might eat "for pleasure", and not sleep at all.

I mean, this is completely unacceptable from my point of view. The purpose of eating is to sustain the body; it is a pleasurable activity because that's the way our body tells us we are doing something good. It's impossible to eat "for pleasure" if eating doesn't serve its only rightful purpose, that is, nutrition. But in heaven there’s no point in nourishing since it is impossible to experience hunger or starvation.

Likewise, it is absurd to suppose sexuality could serve a higher purpose and only that purpose. It is true that some people already here on earth do not marry in order to better focus their lives on some other noble purpose; however, it would not make sense that everyone abstain from marriage because that would mean sexuality has no purpose of its own.

See I wouldn’t mind if life in heaven was somehow fitted to what we are, but as presented in Catholic doctrine, it isn’t, in any way. Ok except singing Hallelujah to God, that’s definitely something fitting to humans, but there’s so much more to us than that. You say we will more perfect versions of ourselves; I think that is a delusion, we will be in fact incredibly reduced versions of ourselves; we will not build cities, we will not explore space, physics, we will not marry, procreate and educate children, which is one of the greatest things a human can do; we will use almost nothing of our human potential; 99% of us will be simply denied, reduced to nothing. And that is a grave injustice.

Saying that our bodies will serve to “offer to God the whole of creation” is poetry. We already can do this here on earth, by living in righteousness.

[kafka]

Dr_Asik,

hmm. I havent read this whole thread yet, but sounds like you might benefit from a different viewpoint of Catholic theology other than that of the neo-scholastics (or theology of the schools). A good dose of Karl Rahner may do you good and help to answer some of your concerns. Let me read this thread and maybe I can come up with some thoughts from some other angles. Maybe this weekend.

[tinytherese]

Our sexuality doesn't serve a higher purpose than what the world tells us or that we at the moment see on this earth? The teachings on the Theology of the Body would beg to differ.

[kafka]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1839764' date='Apr 18 2009, 03:32 PM']Why does Catholic doctrine says our real destiny is not in this world, since we are made out of this world and for this world? What can our afterlife form have to do with our present form – how is our identity preserved if we suddenly become incorporeal and later incorruptible?

Thanks.[/quote]
Dr. Asik,

First I want to recommend you Karl Rahner's work: Foundations of Christian Faith. He does share the same Aristotelean/Thomistic view of human nature as a totality of soul-body and not a naive Platonic view that man is somehow trapped in his body and stuck on earth waiting to be released from materiality into Heaven.

Now I want to mention you are flirting with questions that can be answered all over the Bible or in volumes of theologians/philosophers in varying degrees of success, so all I can do is summarize it in a basic way and it presupposes effects of original sin such as death and the tendency to sin called concupiscience and I will only be covering a few basic Catholic teachings within a little different theological framework than you may be used too.

As far as man is concerned in the totality of his being, in his soul-body existance, the greatest and highest possibility/capability of his human nature is simply to know and to exercise freedom. This experience of man's capacity to know and be free is the very radical depth and origin of his being and is beyond any sort of self-reflection or categorical experience of objects in the concrete world in its basic original structure. This basic structure of his existance is what is called individuality or subjectivity or personhood or 'who we are', and this his subjectivity cannot be located as a coordinate like other objects. This original experience of knowledge and freedom in subjectivity is designed that it opens up in an unlimited and infinite (not in the strict sense) way. This experience is the ground of our beings (established by God). And I want to take a shortcut here and say that this unlimited capacity to know and be free is designed to be fulfilled by God who is Infinity yet we are powerless to accomplish such a fulfillment.

Since this man's original subjective experience of unlimited and infinite knowing and freedom cannot generally be consciously experienced in self-reflection and since this experience is inseperably united to the body and plunged into an historical situation it must be actualized and concretized in the material world. A human subject goes out of himself and experiences and act upon objects in material and historical world, in space and time for the reason of going back into himself and ultimately to God though in a dark uncertain way. In space/time man defines himself so to speak. Free and knowing subjectivity of the soul is dependent on the body and vice versa (while the soul is still greater than the body). They are a circle so to speak and in a way co-dependent. If not we would be angels (I realize some of this might be over-simplified).

Now one of the fundamental teachings unique to a Catholic Christian (or perhaps other religions in an unclarified erroneous teaching mixed with partial truths) is that God communicates Himself to man in his original subjective experience of knowing and loving in an intimate, real and personal way. This is what is called justifying grace, and it is a mode or quality of being whereby God communicates Himself to man in such a way that we are righteous and truly His children, and in a way where God and the human subject are still radically seperated and distinct and free, and in a way where He effects and moves him before, and during we actualize ourselves in time and space, and in a way that is seemless with his freedom and knowing. This is a free and gratuitous gift of God. The Giver is the Gift, the Gift the Giver.

Man is the event of God's self-communication and this event reaches its fulfillment is in immediate vision of God in Heaven also known as the beautific vision. Justifying grace springs up into eternal life which is called immediate vision of God, or beautific vision. This is our purpose and our destiny. To know and love God in freedom face to face. To experience him immediately and not in the dark way in which we must here on Earth.

Yet man in his freedom has the choice to accept or reject this offer of God's self-communication in the mode of grace and so the immediate vision of God does not occur once man accepts this free and gratuitous gift of God Himself. And it is not enough for man to merely accept this gift of justifying grace since he is a totality of soul/body plunged into an historical situation. He must actualize the gift of justifying grace in space and time always with the possibility that he might reject the gift of God in a serious immoral act also known as mortal sin. That is why immediate vision of God is not given as soon as he accepts justifying grace. He must first make it definitive, and the only way he accomplishes this is death in union with Christ or in grace. Death, when time is literally subsumed by Eternity. If he dies in justifying grace his good acts in space/time will become for him definitive 'statements' worthy of a reward since they were accomplished in grace. And his good acts will shine forth in our resurrected bodies in some way.

Because of death a man's soul is 'temporarily' seperated from his body. Since a human is a totality of soul/body and since a human's fulfillment is immediate vision of God it follows that His body is meant to also experience immediate vision of God in some way and undergo a change befitting for the Timeless and Placeless New Heaven, as well as the New Earth, when he will still exercise knowing and freedom in a material albeit superior way when God wills him to descend to the New Earth, communicate with Jesus Christ and the Saints, and continue to do things like build, explore etc. Though this last sentence is speculative since who knows what God has prepared for us. And their are other speculations of resurrected bodies such as having timeless and placeless qualities which makes sense since time and place are burdensome


O.k. I am done for know. I apologize if I was sloppy, unclear or if I over-simplified or if there were some holes in my summarization. I dont want to spend all day working on this when I'm not sure if you will even read it. Still it was a good theological exercise though.

Edited: For grammar errors.

Edited May 2, 2009 by kafka

[Winchester]

There [i]is [/i]a release from the body in the sense that our current bodies are stained by sin--they are not as they were meant to be. We are body and soul, not a soul trapped by a body.

This is an argument which may prove useful in dealing with someone who thinks of our bodies as a trap.

[kafka]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1855593' date='May 2 2009, 03:05 PM']There [i]is [/i]a release from the body in the sense that our current bodies are stained by sin--they are not as they were meant to be. We are body and soul, not a soul trapped by a body.

This is an argument which may prove useful in dealing with someone who thinks of our bodies as a trap.[/quote]
True to a certain extent. Concupiscence: or the effect of original sin in our bodies which tends toward sin do remain until death yet

{5:17} For though, by the one offense, death reigned through one, yet so much more so shall those who receive an abundance of grace, both of the gift and of justice, reign in life through the one Jesus Christ.

many saints reached and continue to reach a state here on earth beyond Adam's original innocence by special graces won by Christ.

I dont like to view death as a release from the body. A Christian should view death as a sacrifice of the body in reparation for his sins and the sins of others in union with Christ.

[Dr_Asik]

Thanks for your detailed response kafka. I will be gone for a week and today I'm quite busy, so I'll give a better look into your insight next week. I'll definitely have to check out Karl Rahner, I must admit that having read Garrigou-Lagrange, Gilson, Maritain and quite a bit of Aquinas himself, I'm a bit saturated with thomism and would like to explore some other thoughts, so thanks for the suggestions.

[kafka]

Very good Dr. Asik.

I've read some of Lagrange's works too. In my opinion Rahner outshines him in insight, clarity and originality. He is on a tier above Lagrange. I dont mean to put him on a pedestal but I think was was the theological genius of the 20th century, though I dont agree with all of his points and have found a few minor errors in the works of his I've read.

Edited May 2, 2009 by kafka

[kafka]

also Dr. Asik I want to mention that you should challenge me because I realize a lot of the above was sloppy, and I firmly believe that these fundamental Catholic teachings of grace, freedom, beautific vision, man's purpose, etc. are of extreme importance for everyone. A good and profound grasp and experience of the fundamental truths of the Faith, elevates the life of Catholics Christians and everyone, since they come from God:

Psalm
{35:9} They will be inebriated with the fruitfulness of your house, and you will give them to drink from the torrent of your enjoyment.
{35:10} For with you is the fountain of life; and within your light, we will see the light.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kafka' post='1855608' date='May 2 2009, 03:15 PM']I dont like to view death as a release from the body. A Christian should view death as a sacrifice of the body in reparation for his sins and the sins of others in union with Christ.[/quote]
Yours is the better way to put it.

[kafka]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1856219' date='May 3 2009, 12:58 AM']Yours is the better way to put it.[/quote]
thank you Winnie.

May the Grace and Peace of Jesus Christ be with you always brother.

I mean that.

[Winchester]

[quote name='kafka' post='1856259' date='May 3 2009, 01:26 AM']thank you Winnie.

May the Grace and Peace of Jesus Christ be with you always brother.

I mean that.[/quote]
That's nice, but I'm still going to expect the twenty dollars you promised me for saying that.