Could A Pope Become An Antichrist ?

[Guest]

[quote name='kafka' post='1840264' date='Apr 19 2009, 03:57 AM']I can lend a view not yet expressed here, yet in the end why have you asked this question DB?[/quote]

Because lately I feel led by the holy spirit to fully understand the whole pope and infallibity claims. I have recently become aware that the Eastern Orthadox Church doesnt believe in the Pope having infallibity. I know we are approaching the end times and just want to make sure the Roman Catholic Church and the Popes Infallibity is really of God. Because if is not I dont want to be part of it. I have seen it go both ways in this thread by militant that if the pope did start to error we would not be bound to follow what he says. Some say we would follow him not matter what becasue he cannot error. This brings to where I am right now. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Guest

[Aloysius]

I would say that the Eastern Orthodox position is a very interesting one and can, when viewed by the properly formed Catholic mind, be very enlightening to one's own understanding of the Church. we sometimes forget that we should keep in mind the proper respect due to the other patriarchs of the Church and in many minor manners, it is the other patriarchs who can keep us in check a bit... because the Roman Church has always had a tendency to view things in a more progressive sense (though the past 40 years have been unlike any previous progressiveness in the Roman Church) and the other patriarchs are a bit like anchors.

when it comes to the Apocalypse of St. John (the Book of Revelations), it can be interesting to question and speculate as to how exactly it will play out, but don't bet the farm on any one interpretation. never fall into the trap of saying "oh, I know exactly where the false prophet will be and where the antichrist will be and who and what they'll be and how they'll do this or that"... Christians aren't supposed to not be deceived because we figured it all out ahead of time and knew not to trust President Obama because of our reading of scripture (haha, I just chose Obama to get a laugh, replace his name with "x")... we're not supposed to be undeceived by the antichrist because we knew before he even showed up exactly who and what he'd be; we're supposed to not be deceived because we have a deep and strong faith and are attuned to the deep and strong sensus fidelium, the sense of the faithful... we'll know because the anti-Christ won't be preaching the Christ that we've encountered through the Church... we'll know the false Christ because we have truly known the true risen Christ. so don't get too hung up on what the details of the future apocalypse will be... for no one knows the day or hour.

that's my advice. I know a lot of people do like to get caught up in speculative theology... and I myself have my own little pet projects of speculative theology, though they don't range into eschatology that much... I'm just sayin: don't bet the farm on your own personal interpretation of that stuff. that's all.

[Guest]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1840266' date='Apr 19 2009, 04:02 AM']I would say that the Eastern Orthodox position is a very interesting one and can, when viewed by the properly formed Catholic mind, be very enlightening to one's own understanding of the Church. we sometimes forget that we should keep in mind the proper respect due to the other patriarchs of the Church and in many minor manners, it is the other patriarchs who can keep us in check a bit... because the Roman Church has always had a tendency to view things in a more progressive sense (though the past 40 years have been unlike any previous progressiveness in the Roman Church) and the other patriarchs are a bit like anchors.

when it comes to the Apocalypse of St. John (the Book of Revelations), it can be interesting to question and speculate as to how exactly it will play out, but don't bet the farm on any one interpretation. never fall into the trap of saying "oh, I know exactly where the false prophet will be and where the antichrist will be and who and what they'll be and how they'll do this or that"... Christians aren't supposed to not be deceived because we figured it all out ahead of time and knew not to trust President Obama because of our reading of scripture (haha, I just chose Obama to get a laugh, replace his name with "x")... we're not supposed to be undeceived by the antichrist because we knew before he even showed up exactly who and what he'd be; we're supposed to not be deceived because we have a deep and strong faith and are attuned to the deep and strong sensus fidelium, the sense of the faithful... we'll know because the anti-Christ won't be preaching the Christ that we've encountered through the Church... we'll know the false Christ because we have truly known the true risen Christ. so don't get too hung up on what the details of the future apocalypse will be... for no one knows the day or hour.[/quote]


Beautifully said.
And I agree about not focusing on the end times so one can say " I told you so"
But I believe it is important we recognise the times and also remember we are one body.
If a pope in the future were to error from the faith and the teachings of the church I would hope it would not be beyond us to listen to what other leaders in the church have to say also.
And that is basically what this thread comes down to. If one does become convinced that the pope alone does not have the keys of heaven and indeed the bishiops do share these what does one do ?

Edited April 19, 2009 by Guest

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1840265' date='Apr 19 2009, 05:01 AM']Because lately I feel led by the holy spirit to fully understand the whole pope and infallibity claims. I have recently become aware that the Eastern Orthadox Church doesnt believe in the Pope having infallibity. I know we are approaching the end times and just want to make sure the Roman Catholic Church and the Popes Infallibity is really of God. Because if is not I dont want to be part of it. I have seen it go both ways in this thread by militant that if the pope did start to error we would not be bound to follow what he says. Some say we would follow him not matter what becasue he cannot error. This brings to where I am right now. I would love to hear your thoughts.[/quote]
the pope cannot err when he binds the whole Church on a matter of faith or morals.

he can have personal theological errors... sometimes it's hard to see where the fine line of difference is, but the point is that you can trust the Holy Spirit guides those acts of the Holy Father which truly bind the whole Church and get a sense of when those are... when it's an off the cuff remark to news reporters, don't consider it binding; but pay attention to encyclicals and documents and declarations if you want to see what he's teaching, and in simple faith that God will reward, it's sometimes good to just take it and not question which level of teaching it is, but take it to heart because it is a teaching given to you by someone who has been charged by Christ himself to be the shepherd of your soul.

[Guest]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1840268' date='Apr 19 2009, 04:07 AM']the pope cannot err when he binds the whole Church on a matter of faith or morals.

he can have personal theological errors...[/quote]

So why doesn't the Eastern Orthadox Church hold to this ?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1840267' date='Apr 19 2009, 05:05 AM']Beautifully said.
And I agree about not focusing on the end times so one can say " I told you so"
But I believe it is important we recognise the times and also remember we are one body.
If a pope in the future were to error from the faith and the teachings of the church I would hope it would not be beyond us to listen to what other leaders in the church have to say also.
And that is basically what this thread comes down to. If one does become convinced that the pope alone does not have the keys of heaven and indeed the bishiops do share these what does one do ?[/quote]
no need to leave the Church, the Catholic Church also believes that all the bishops share in the keys.

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." St. Matthew 16:18-19

"Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." St. Matthew 18:18, said to all of the Apostles together.

the Church holds that the successor of Peter has the keys of the kingdom in a special way, but that all the other apostles also have them together. they all exercise that authority fully when all of the bishops gather in union with the Pope in an Ecumenical Council.

[Guest]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1840272' date='Apr 19 2009, 03:15 AM']no need to leave the Church, the Catholic Church also believes that all the bishops share in the keys.

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." St. Matthew 16:18-19

"Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." St. Matthew 18:18, said to all of the Apostles together.

the Church holds that the successor of Peter has the keys of the kingdom in a special way, but that all the other apostles also have them together. they all exercise that authority fully when all of the bishops gather in union with the Pope in an Ecumenical Council.[/quote]


lol See I didnt know that we hold to the truth that the keys are shared. I thought it was just the pope. I love phatmass I learn so much.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

So al do you have an opinon how the endtimes will play out ? Do you speculate on a antipope ?

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1840269' date='Apr 19 2009, 05:09 AM']So why doesn't the Eastern Orthadox Church hold to this ?[/quote]
because they believe that the Pope as successor to Peter should be first among equals with the other Patriarchs being his equals. To a certain extent he is, but the Orthodox have ignored the special and unique role given only to Peter and His successors through the Roman See to "confirm the brethren in the faith" and settle disputes. They simply do not want to grant him authority to be the one final arbiter that guarantees that the Church remains unified in belief; and because of this, there is disunity among the various Orthodox Churches to some extent. Christ prayed that the Church be one "as He and His Father are one"... and so we hold that all the Churches must be one as one whole as an earthly icon of the Son being united to an earthly icon of the Father so that there is perfect unity. the Orthodox lack that type of perfect unity.

to be fair, we don't always exhibit our perfect unity. but the ecclesiological structure in place gives us a final authority which prevents the Church from being able to fragment in different disunified directions... we have a final shepherd who confirms all his brethren in what is and what is not the True Church.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1840274' date='Apr 19 2009, 05:19 AM']So al do you have an opinon how the endtimes will play out ? Do you speculate on a antipope ?[/quote]
I think it likely that an antipope could be set up. but I don't know, I could also see the anti-Christ being some type of worldly/secular leader... a president of the USA or of the European Union, or even of the United Nations with it growing in power to actually exert true governmental powers universal over and above all governments of the world. perhaps the antipope is a false prophet who leads many even of the faithful to support this one world government mutated out of the UN and the ultimate leader of that UN becomes pretty much the first emperor of the whole world... it would seem fitting that somebody finally accomplishes being emperor of the whole world after all the previous archetypes of the anti-Christs through history have approximated that imperfectly from Nero to Napoleon to Hitler.

all I know is I'm going to Clonmacnoise to meet St. Patrick, and from there we'll go to the fields of Armageddon for the final battle :
[url="http://thesixbells.blogspot.com/2009/03/st-patricks-day.html"]http://thesixbells.blogspot.com/2009/03/st-patricks-day.html[/url]

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1840255' date='Apr 19 2009, 02:38 AM']Becasue they do not believe in the infallibity of the pope therefore if a antipope came in the end appointed by the roman cathoilc church they would speak out against him as would all true christians. People dont want to admit a antichrist is coming that will be satan himself performing miracles and even making fire come down from heaven. Church militant have said in this thread that it may very well be possible that a antipope would come in the end. So again I ask if a antipope is to come in the end to work with the antichrist (who comes at the 6th trump before Jesus Christ at the 7th) how can the Roman Catholic Church lay claim to the Pope alone has the keys of heaven ? If indeed a antipope would come in the end it would be very clear that he doesnt have the keys of heaven.[/quote]

There have been many antipopes in history already. That doesn't give any weight to the E. Orthodox or anyone who would argue against the authority of a real pope. I think that there will be a very powerful antipope at the end of the world working with the anti-christ who will likely be a strong political figure of some sort. I think we have an anti-pope now, though not likely the last one or nearly the most powerful.

Just because a person is perceived to be a pope and just because this so-called person teaches against Catholic doctrine does not mean that the Church doesn't have the keys, it simply means that the anti-pope doesn't have the keys. It simply means that the anti-pope is not a Catholic and not a real pope. That is all. The only way that the gates of hell can prevail is if a true and real pope with true and real power were to INFALLIBLY (and this is the key - no pun intended) put forth a doctrine that was explicitly against true Catholic doctrine. This has never happened and will never happen. Any person, even an anti-pope, can hold any doctrine he wants personally and lose his faith without affecting the Church or its power and hold on the keys.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1840256' date='Apr 19 2009, 02:42 AM']a validly elected pope cannot teach error in faith or morals. I know golden will be itching to say something about this lol, but it's true that if the pope is truly validly elected he cannot bind the Church in error because the Holy Spirit will prevent it from happening.[/quote]

nope I agree with you. No validly elected pope can promulgate infallibly any error. I used to think it was possible but not any more.

[Guest]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1840277' date='Apr 19 2009, 04:26 AM']There have been many antipopes in history already. That doesn't give any weight to the E. Orthodox or anyone who would argue against the authority of a real pope. I think that there will be a very powerful antipope at the end of the world working with the anti-christ who will likely be a strong political figure of some sort. I think we have an anti-pope now, though not likely the last one or nearly the most powerful.

Just because a person is perceived to be a pope and just because this so-called person teaches against Catholic doctrine does not mean that the Church doesn't have the keys, it simply means that the anti-pope doesn't have the keys. It simply means that the anti-pope is not a Catholic and not a real pope. That is all. The only way that the gates of hell can prevail is if a true and real pope with true and real power were to INFALLIBLY (and this is the key - no pun intended) put forth a doctrine that was explicitly against true Catholic doctrine. This has never happened and will never happen. Any person, even an anti-pope, can hold any doctrine he wants personally and lose his faith without affecting the Church or its power and hold on the keys.[/quote]

Peace Pham

Ok I follow you and I dont. You say that no real pope can become an antipope but yet you say we have an antipope now ? I'm confused.

[Guest]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1840276' date='Apr 19 2009, 03:25 AM']I think it likely that an antipope could be set up. but I don't know, I could also see the anti-Christ being some type of worldly/secular leader... a president of the USA or of the European Union, or even of the United Nations with it growing in power to actually exert true governmental powers universal over and above all governments of the world. perhaps the antipope is a false prophet who leads many even of the faithful to support this one world government mutated out of the UN and the ultimate leader of that UN becomes pretty much the first emperor of the whole world... it would seem fitting that somebody finally accomplishes being emperor of the whole world after all the previous archetypes of the anti-Christs through history have approximated that imperfectly from Nero to Napoleon to Hitler.

all I know is I'm going to Clonmacnoise to meet St. Patrick, and from there we'll go to the fields of Armageddon for the final battle :
[url="http://thesixbells.blogspot.com/2009/03/st-patricks-day.html"]http://thesixbells.blogspot.com/2009/03/st-patricks-day.html[/url][/quote]


So freaken interesting.
Wow.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1840279' date='Apr 19 2009, 03:29 AM']Peace Pham

Ok I follow you and I dont. You say that no real pope can become an antipope but yet you say we have an antipope now ? I'm confused. [/quote]

haha now I'm confused... this is why I shouldn't do this at 2:30 in the morning... anyways, I'll get in trouble if I talk much more about this on phatmass. In short, I believe that no true pope will ever officially promulgate infallibly any heresy. I don't believe this is possible. But I do believe a true pope can personally err and become a heretic in his non-infallible beliefs and teachings and if this happens he loses his authority as pope. Also, fake popes can (and have been) elected many times. This can happen for religious or political reasons and they are not really popes but act as such. Any teachings (infallible or otherwise) are not from the Church and have no binding authority over the faithful.

Edited April 19, 2009 by goldenchild17