Atheism

[Resurrexi]

Though I doubt that there are too many atheists around these parts, I've been wondering how many people truly die atheists.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1834878' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:04 PM']Though I doubt that there are too many atheists around these parts, I've been wondering how many people truly die atheists.[/quote]

Well, my father was in WWII and when I asked him once if he believed in God, he told me "There are no atheists in foxholes."

[CatherineM]

I have this vision of hell as simply the absence of/ separation from God, and that only those people who truly don't want to be with God end up there. When Christians die, we expect to see God (eventually), and atheists expect nothingness. So, in a way, we are both going to get what we expect, we just won't be able to tell each other "I told you so."

[IrishSalesian]

I always thought that atheism was in and of itself contradictory. In order for someone to deny something, you have to first, on some level, acknowledge it. An atheist would say, "God doesn't exist." When the atheist says "God" they are on some level of consciousness giving an identity to God. With acknowledging God on any level of consciousness contradicts what it is that an atheist thinks they are standing for, ergo, it is impossible to be an atheist.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth...

Edited April 14, 2009 by IrishSalesian

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1835101' date='Apr 14 2009, 07:23 AM']I always thought that atheism was in and of itself contradictory. In order for someone to deny something, you have to first, on some level, acknowledge it. An atheist would say, "God doesn't exist." When the atheist says "God" they are on some level of consciousness giving an identity to God. With acknowledging God on any level of consciousness contradicts what it is that an atheist thinks they are standing for, ergo, it is impossible to be an atheist.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth...[/quote]

I don't know that I completely follow your logic here. Wouldn't your reasoning mean it is impossible to deny the existence of anything without being in inherent contradiction? If that were the case, does that mean unicorns and aliens exist?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1835101' date='Apr 14 2009, 07:23 AM']I always thought that atheism was in and of itself contradictory. In order for someone to deny something, you have to first, on some level, acknowledge it. An atheist would say, "God doesn't exist." When the atheist says "God" they are on some level of consciousness giving an identity to God. With acknowledging God on any level of consciousness contradicts what it is that an atheist thinks they are standing for, ergo, it is impossible to be an atheist.

Just my thoughts for what it is worth...[/quote]
I acknowledge that the concept of God exists but I deny that the concept has base in reality. I don't have to acknowledge anything above that to have disbelief in any kind of god.

[Lounge Daddy]

Great scott! You truly are a advocatus diaboli

[LivingStone]

I might regret bringing this up, but I would say that IrishSalesian's post was almost there in a sense of actually proving God. Yes, I'm going to go there:

The Ontological Argument for the Existence of God (of Saint Anselm since there are a few different ones)

"That-which-nothing-greater-can-be-conceived" must exist since it is better to exist than not to exist. Note that this 'proof' only works with a being that is purely perfect (perfect love, beauty, truth, etc.) and doesn't work with other examples, like a perfect "island". Just because you can conceive of a perfect island doesn't mean that it follows that the island must exist because it merely isn't a purely perfect being. I know I left many gaps in the explanation, this is just a refresher for those that are familiar with it already, as I need to get to bed about now.

Try explaining the ontological argument for the existence of God to a materialist, realist atheist. Oi, that's a lot of work.

It goes something like this:
Evangelist: "Ok. What is the greatest thing you can think of?"
Materialist: "Hmmmm...A scoop of ice cream."
Evangelist: "Ok, I know you can think of something greater than that. C'mon, try harder"
Materialist: "Alright, how about two scoops of ice cream"
Evangelist: "Well, we're making some progress. Surely, there has to be something greater than that..."

And so on...until you get to a being that is "purely perfect" as the phenomenologist Josef Seifert would put it and clarify.

Evangelist: "C'mon, there has to be something even better than that"
Materialist: "Ok, hmmm, a purely perfect being that contains within itself non-contradictory pure perfections"
Evangelist: "You Got IT!! Therefore, that being must exist because you thought of it! Evangelist +1!."

Yeah, its exhaustive work.

[IrishSalesian]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1835713' date='Apr 14 2009, 11:05 PM']I don't know that I completely follow your logic here. Wouldn't your reasoning mean it is impossible to deny the existence of anything without being in inherent contradiction? If that were the case, does that mean unicorns and aliens exist?[/quote]

Unicorns and aliens, do exist in some level of being. They may not be real in the tangible sense. But on some level of existence, they do exist. If you can imagine a figure when someone says 'unicorn' then you have given that object a form in your mind. So, within your mind you have given that 'unicorn' existence. Take for example the number 3. The numeral 3 does exist. But can you [i]show[/i] me 3? No. three, by itself, does not exist. You cannot think of three. This is because three is a concept where as the unicorn, or alien, are objects. Granted they are fictional, they are objects.

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1835740' date='Apr 14 2009, 11:26 PM']I acknowledge that the concept of God exists but I deny that the concept has base in reality. I don't have to acknowledge anything above that to have disbelief in any kind of god.[/quote]

Whether you deny the existence of God in reality or not, you have acknowledged the existence of God on some level. I know that as a Catholic, God is tangible. He gave us the Eucharist. You may not believe in it, but I do.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1835774' date='Apr 14 2009, 11:04 PM']Unicorns and aliens, do exist in some level of being. They may not be real in the tangible sense. But on some level of existence, they do exist. If you can imagine a figure when someone says 'unicorn' then you have given that object a form in your mind. So, within your mind you have given that 'unicorn' existence. Take for example the number 3. The numeral 3 does exist. But can you [i]show[/i] me 3? No. three, by itself, does not exist. You cannot think of three. This is because three is a concept where as the unicorn, or alien, are objects. Granted they are fictional, they are objects.[/quote]

Just because the [i]thought[/i] exists (say, thinking about a unicorn) does not mean that the [i]object[/i] exists.

[IrishSalesian]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1835780' date='Apr 15 2009, 12:10 AM']Just because the [i]thought[/i] exists (say, thinking about a unicorn) does not mean that the [i]object[/i] exists.[/quote]

I am not saying that the being in question exists in reality. It exists in potentiality. You can think of 'unicorn'. You think of a form, you in your mind have given this being, a form. On some level of being, you have given it existence. May not be in the real world, but it does exist, in potentiality.

[Thomist-in-Training]

Speaking of not dying atheists, I've heard a few times that C. S. Lewis was a deathbed convert to Catholicism. Does anyone have any evidence for this, even the name of a book that says it? </>

[Justified Saint]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1835774' date='Apr 14 2009, 09:04 PM']Unicorns and aliens, do exist in some level of being. They may not be real in the tangible sense. But on some level of existence, they do exist. If you can imagine a figure when someone says 'unicorn' then you have given that object a form in your mind. So, within your mind you have given that 'unicorn' existence. Take for example the number 3. The numeral 3 does exist. But can you [i]show[/i] me 3? No. three, by itself, does not exist. You cannot think of three. This is because three is a concept where as the unicorn, or alien, are objects. Granted they are fictional, they are objects.[/quote]

You are begging the question, how is the atheist contradictory by denying the existence of God, especially if you are fashioning this "potentiality" vs "actuality" argument? And what makes God a "true" object as opposed to a "fictional" object on your account?

[rkwright]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1835790' date='Apr 14 2009, 10:20 PM']I am not saying that the being in question exists in reality. It exists in potentiality. You can think of 'unicorn'. You think of a form, you in your mind have given this being, a form. On some level of being, you have given it existence. May not be in the real world, but it does exist, in potentiality.[/quote]

Thats really the first step in the ontological argument.

God is something that can possibly exist - God can be thought of as existing. Compare this to the 4 sided triangle - it cannot possibly exist, it cannot be thought of as existing.

So even the Atheist acknowledges that is is possible that God exists, for even the Atheist can imagine God existing.

The next step is the key. If God can be thought of as existing, then it is better that He actually exist. Since God is by definition "the best" or "that-which-nothing-greater-can-be-conceived" He must then actually exist.

[IrishSalesian]

[quote name='Justified Saint' post='1835819' date='Apr 15 2009, 01:00 AM']You are begging the question, how is the atheist contradictory by denying the existence of God, especially if you are fashioning this "potentiality" vs "actuality" argument? And what makes God a "true" object as opposed to a "fictional" object on your account?[/quote]

Atheists contradict themselves by stating that God doesn't exist. When they acknowledge that God exists, even if it is just a concept to them. See post #6.

God as true object, well most obviously, the Eucharist.

i will elaborate more tomorrow with God as true object, i am going to bed. Good night

Edited April 15, 2009 by IrishSalesian