Luther Good ---- Luther Bad

[Bruce S]

Martin Luther the outright schismatic, the heretic, the ungodly.

UNTIL a Catholic needs to buttress up the Mary story...

Grin.

So come on now guys, if old Marty has EVERYTHING so wrong, how come you love to use him on SOME things and not give him credit for insights that ended up making the Catholic Church a BETTER denomination? For without old Marty and his acid pen and tounge, who knows, old Tertzle might even be a Saint today?

Can't help but chuckle over this inconsistancy in arguement here....

Smooch.

Said a prayer for you all in Mass this morning.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I actually think Martin Luther had a lot of things right. Everything that agrees with Catholic doctrine anyway.

[tobk2000]

I don't think he was necessarily trying to break away from the church, initially, only trying to stop corrupt practices in the church (simony etc), so it would make sense that some of his stuff coincides with church teaching. i agree that it is strange using him to support our arguments though

funny fact: I heard that luther was constipated

[Dave]

[quote name='tobk2000' date='Mar 24 2004, 04:03 PM'] I don't think he was necessarily trying to break away from the church, initially, only trying to stop corrupt practices in the church (simony etc), so it would make sense that some of his stuff coincides with church teaching. i agree that it is strange using him to support our arguments though

[/quote]
Well true, he wanted those corrupt practices stopped, but he also wanted the Church to change to suit his agenda.

[Good Friday]

Bruce, I think the answer to your question is: Luther Both.

Yes, we do believe that Martin Luther was a schismatic and heretic. That doesn't make him absolutely evil and wrong in all things. He was not Satan, he was a human being capable of choosing or rejecting God and His Church. To a large degree, I think he did reject the Church, but there were some things he did not reject. Marian devotion was one of those things. We Catholics wonder why, in contradiction to Luther's own teaching, there are many Lutherans today who reject Marian devotion.

Here is a quote from [i]Nostra Aetate[/i], the Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions from the Second Vatican Council. It may help to explain why, though Luther was indeed a schismatic, we still believe that he could have had [i]some[/i] things correct:

"The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions . . . The Church therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men."

Here, the Church is referring to non-Christian religions. If this is her position toward those who do not even profess faith in Christ, how much more open must she be to the truths that can be found in the errant faith of her separated sons and daughters?

This is why we can say in one breath that Luther was a schismatic and heretic, and in another say that despite that, he still had devotion to Mary and that was a good thing.

[AngelofJesus]

The things he got wrong were the things that made us different. To us devout Catholics, it's either complete obidience to the magisterium and the doctrines or its wrong. The church is perfect, the men that hold the office are not. Luther left and made a denomination against the Church not against that one person that made things bad. Imagine a child leaving a household because a sibling is not doing something good, unthinkable. You dont leave a house, you just stay away from that sibling.

[Bruce S]

Does that mean that Marty is 1/2 a Saint? Just S. Martin and not St. Martin?

And any man that could make you laugh as much as old Marty did when he got really really going on things could not be all bad.

Bet he was a great lecturer, would have been a great TV preacher too.

But the Lutherans would toss him out in a heartbeat, too conservative for them nowadays.

I bet he would be a Pentecostal given time enough.

[Dave]

Martin Luther wouldn't even be accepted by the Pentecostals! He advocated bigamy, divorce, and other sexual sins!

[Paladin D]

I wonder if Martin Luther made pretzels...

[Bruce S]

[quote]He advocated bigamy, divorce, and other sexual sins![/quote]

After all, we WAS a priest first...

Me bad. [Running HARD...stage left! ]

Edited March 24, 2004 by Bruce S

[phatcatholic]

[u][b]MINI-REFERENCE SECTION ON LUTHER[/b][/u]

[b]COMPREHENSIVE ARGUMENT[/b]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ269.HTM"]The Orthodox vs. Heterodox Luther[/url]
--The Catholic Perspective on Martin Luther: Parts [b][url="http://www.graceunknown.com/Reformata/Luther/RCUnderstandingofLuther1.html"]One[/url][/b] and [b][url="http://www.graceunknown.com/Reformata/Luther/RCUnderstandingofLuther2.html"]Two[/url][/b]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=548"]Martin Luther[/url]

[b]SPECIFIC ARGUMENTS[/b]

[b]Martin Luther: The Good[/b]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM"]Martin Luther's Devotion to Mary[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ77.HTM"]Counter-Reply: Martin Luther's Mariology (Particularly the Immaculate Conception)[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ365.HTM"]Second Reply Concerning Martin Luther's Mariology[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ460.HTM"]Luther on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ215.HTM"]Lulther on Baptismal Regeneration[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ259.HTM"]The Opposition of Luther to Contraception and the "Fewer Children is Better" Mentality[/url]
--[url="http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9603/articles/yeago.html"]The Catholic Luther[/url]

[b]Martin Luther: The Bad[/b]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ493.HTM"]Did Martin Luther Regard the (Roman) Catholic Church as a Non-Christian, Apostate Institution?[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ341.HTM"]Martin Luther, the Super-Pope[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ499.HTM"]Was Jesus Lilterally Made Sin on the Cross?: Luther vs. the Church Fathers[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ220.HTM"]Martin Luther, Indulgences, and the Origins of the Protestant Revolt[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ325.HTM"]Luther vs. the Canon of the Bible[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ260.HTM"]The Ambigious Relationship of Luther to St. Augustine[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ240.HTM"]Martin Luther's Doctrine Concerning Good Works[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ266.HTM"]The Irrational Antipathy of Luther to Clerical Celibacy[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/LUTHVER.TXT"]Lulther on Free Will[/url]
--[url="http://www.leaderu.com/science/kobe.html"]Luther and Science[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3013"]Lutheranism and Transubstantiation[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3423"]Fallacy about Martin Luther[/url]

[b]Martin Luther: The Ugly[/b]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ29.HTM"]Did Martin Luther Believe That Jesus Had Carnal Relations With Mary Magdalene and Others?[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ503.HTM"]Martin Luther's Violent, Inflammatory Rhetoric and its Relationship to the German Peasants' Revolt (1524-1525)[/url]
--[url="http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2004_02_22_socrates58_archive.html"]Luther Favored the Death Penalty for Anabaptists[/url]

hehe, sorry guys, coudln't help it

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Laudate_Dominum]

Haha! Thanks phatcatholic.

[Jericho923]

we surely needed reformation, i will be the last to deny that, but Mr. Luther did not have to take so far on his own...i am thankful for his initiative because it caused the counter-reformation of the Church...from within! according to the guidance of the Spirit's revelation for 1600 years and the teachings of Jesus.

The teaching remains protected (the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it) but we are no less human than before and keep sinning. But hopefully everyday closer to the Heart of Jesus and longing for holiness in every step of the way!

[Aloysius]

the reason God allowed the reformation to take place was so that we would be inspired to have the counter-reformation.

ever notice how heresy tends to inspire us to define doctrine more fully?

seeeeeee: THE CHURCH IS TESTED BY FIRE the same way we are. and the Church is perfected by fire, just as we are.

but the fire does not prevail, it burns away the bad leaving the good

[Justified Saint]

Aloysius, now that is a very poetic way to put it, I like it.

Bruce, Teztel probably was a lot more saintly than Luther made him out to be. Unfortunately, though the caricatures carry over the generations on both sides.