reyb Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1851412' date='Apr 28 2009, 04:16 PM']Oh, all right, now I get what you're saying a little better. When Saint Paul says God has blinded men so they could not see Christ, this is not to be taken litteraly. First, God haven't made anyone physically blind so that they could not see Jesus; also, it's not just seeing Christ, in person or as revealed by the Gospels or other historical sources; Saint Paul is talking about [b]faith[/b]. When he says God has blinded men, this means he denied them the grace of faith. And this is why Catholics say that faith is always a special gift from God. In other words, even though everyone can "see" Christ (through the Gospels or through any particular source), not everyone becomes a believer, and this is because it pertains to God to give the grace of faith or to deny it. This is basically how I would interpret that passage from Saint Paul.[/quote] That is precisely what I am talking about, and they (and I am referring to pagan sources) ‘see’ Jesus but still they do not believe him as the Christ of God. Which is different from Apostle Paul’s letter to the Corithians (2 Cor 4:16). He said ‘2 Cor 4:3-4 [color="#FF0000"]And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God[/color]. NIV As if Apostle Paul is saying ‘if you see Christ, who is the image of God, through our gospel, then you are no longer having the mind of unbelievers’. In short, if you ‘see’ Christ you will become a ‘believer’ otherwise, you are blind and unbeliever. But, this is not the case in your statement, from where you simply convey that pagans, Jews and other unbelievers can ‘see’ Jesus – the historical Jesus – but, they are still blind and unbelievers. They do ‘accept’ the existence of historical Jesus, and thus give their ‘historical document’ as proof, but they did not accept Him as the Christ of God’. In short, if I will follow your line of thought, a believer and unbeliever ‘see’ the same Jesus Christ, which also means, a man having a good eyesight (believer) is just as good as a blind person (unbeliever) since both of them can see this one and the same Jesus Christ - the historical Jesus Christ. Am I correct in rephrasing your earlier statement? Edited April 29, 2009 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Asik Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I'm not sure what you mean by "just as good" when you say an unbeliever is just as good as a believer. What I say is that both acknowledge the existence of a man named Jesus, but only the believer acknowledge that this man was also the Son of God. I do not, however, make a fundamental distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith". If the unbeliever were to carefully consider the historical evidence at hand, he would tend to think that there was more to Jesus than a simple man. There is indeed historical evidence for not only the existence of a man named Jesus, but also of his Resurrection from the dead, which attests he is more than a simple man. The figure in which Catholics believe is a historical one; the man and the Son of God are indeed one and the same. I'd appreciate if you could formulate your main argument at some point, which seems to revolve around the distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 [quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1851778' date='Apr 28 2009, 11:05 PM']I'm not sure what you mean by "just as good" when you say an unbeliever is just as good as a believer. What I say is that both acknowledge the existence of a man named Jesus, but only the believer acknowledge that this man was also the Son of God. I do not, however, make a fundamental distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith". If the unbeliever were to carefully consider the historical evidence at hand, he would tend to think that there was more to Jesus than a simple man. There is indeed historical evidence for not only the existence of a man named Jesus, but also of his Resurrection from the dead, which attests he is more than a simple man. The figure in which Catholics believe is a historical one; the man and the Son of God are indeed one and the same. I'd appreciate if you could formulate your main argument at some point, which seems to revolve around the distinction between the "historical Jesus" and the "Jesus of faith".[/quote] I said ‘if I will follow your line of thinking, it seems, a believer is as good as an unbeliever’ because, both of them can ‘see’ the same Jesus Christ – the historical Jesus. I do understand when you said ‘both (believers and unbelievers) acknowledge the existence of a man named Jesus’. And although they (unbelievers) acknowledge his existence, they do not believe him as the Christ. This scenario is very obvious in our days due to the existence of many different ‘acceptance’ to this historical Jesus. But, according to the scripture, Christ is the truth. Now, do you think an unbeliever can ‘see’ the Truth? And if Christ is truly the historical Jesus, do you mean, they do not know the Truth but, they can ‘see’ the Christ? Is Christ the Truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Asik Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote]But, according to the scripture, Christ is the truth. Now, do you think an unbeliever can ‘see’ the Truth? And if Christ is truly the historical Jesus, do you mean, they do not know the Truth but, they can ‘see’ the Christ?[/quote]Inasmuch as the unbeliever sees Jesus, he sees the Truth, since Jesus is the Truth. However, the unbeliever doesn't see that Jesus is God, hence he doesn't see that Jesus is Truth. And this is what Saint Paul means when he says the unbeliever is blinded and doesn't see the Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 [quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1854598' date='May 1 2009, 05:53 PM']Inasmuch as the unbeliever sees Jesus, he sees the Truth, since Jesus is the Truth. However, the unbeliever doesn't see that Jesus is God, hence he doesn't see that Jesus is Truth. And this is what Saint Paul means when he says the unbeliever is blinded and doesn't see the Truth.[/quote] ‘Seeing Jesus but not knowing the Truth’ is the reason why I started a new topic – Christ is the Truth – and, I will post my comment in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 Let us go back to our discussion... Can you please explain how your sins are forgiven through the death of Jesus other than faith (that your sins are forgiven)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 Since Holy week is coming too fast….. Can you please give your thought on these issues … 1. Why it is necessary for him (Jesus) to die in order to redeem our soul? 2. Why not God just forgive our sins without ‘paying’ anything? 3. What is the relation of his death to your sin? 4. What is your sin which bring him to death? , and 5. How your sin is forgiven through his death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 (edited) [quote name='reyb' date='12 February 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1266029649' post='2056223'] Since Holy week is coming too fast….. Can you please give your thought on these issues … 1. Why it is necessary for him (Jesus) to die in order to redeem our soul? 2. Why not God just forgive our sins without ‘paying’ anything? 3. What is the relation of his death to your sin? 4. What is your sin which bring him to death? , and 5. How your sin is forgiven through his death? [/quote] Is English your first language? What physical person helped in teaching you about your jesus? Was it a preacher? If so what type of church? Did it have a name? Or have you taught yourself all this all by yourself and your jesus? Why do you always ask so many questions? Are you a boy or girl? What's your favorite color? If you could be any animal what animal would you be? Why is the sky blue? How old are you? Why is peanut butter better than jelly? What are some things that rhyme with lame? Why are cats evil? Why does bad things happen to good people? Is Coke better than Pepsi? Why did NBC choose Jay over Coco? Why is Conan still awesome? Why is a raven like a writing desk? Edited February 13, 2010 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 February 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1266029854' post='2056225'] Is English your first language? What physical person helped in teaching you about your jesus? Was it a preacher? If so what type of church? Did it have a name? Or have you taught yourself all this all by yourself and your jesus? Why do you always ask so many questions? Are you a boy or girl? What's your favorite color? If you could be any animal what animal would you be? Why is the sky blue? How old are you? Why is peanut butter better than jelly? What are some things that rhyme with lame? [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Why is Resurrexi the master of disaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='12 February 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1266029854' post='2056225'] Is English your first language? What physical person helped in teaching you about your jesus? Was it a preacher? If so what type of church? Did it have a name? Or have you taught yourself all this all by yourself and your jesus? Why do you always ask so many questions? Are you a boy or girl? What's your favorite color? If you could be any animal what animal would you be? Why is the sky blue? How old are you? Why is peanut butter better than jelly? What are some things that rhyme with lame? Why are cats evil? Why does bad things happen to good people? Is Coke better than Pepsi? Why did NBC choose Jay over Coco? Why is Conan still awesome? Why is a raven like a writing desk? [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 (edited) .............sorry. double post. Edited February 13, 2010 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 [quote name='reyb' date='12 February 2010 - 10:08 PM' timestamp='1266030533' post='2056234'] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Dude, this is just old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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