The Death Of Historical Jesus - Remembered (again)

[reyb]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1839506' date='Apr 18 2009, 03:28 AM']I would say one of the most conclusive proofs that the Christ of Christianity is the historical Jesus is that nearly all of the twelve apostles died for their faith in the Risen God-Man. I don't know too many people willing to die for something they made up.[/quote]


[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1839804' date='Apr 18 2009, 05:34 PM']100% agreed. To think they were promoting some myth they made up is madness.[/quote]

[indent]Are you referring to the 12 Apostles in the synoptic gospel? This is a good opportunity for all of us to see and to prove that these 12 Apostles (including all characters in the synoptic gospel like the 3 wise men or kings, Mary and John the carpenter, Pontius Pilate…etc…etc) truly exist in this world more or less 2000 years ago. And since you believed that this ‘gospel’ is a historical reality, can you pleased show some ‘proofs’? Take note, I even heard on TV Archbishop Dolan in New York saying ‘when he visited the Holy Land, they cannot find the ‘Road to Emmaus’.

Please post here any proof. (Let us say, biography of any particular character in the synoptic gospel) [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1839578' date='Apr 18 2009, 09:46 AM']Rey continuously attempts to disprove Catholicism but, as you should come to notice, never explains what Christ [i]he[/i] is "preaching" nor does he offer any support of his [i]personal[/i] belief (whatever that belief is).

Please stop driving yourself crazy over the rapture and "new age" Christianity.[/quote]

[indent]
Christ is the mystery of God, Isn' it? Now, how can I explain him to you? [/indent]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1839804' date='Apr 18 2009, 05:34 PM']100% agreed. To think they were promoting some myth they made up is madness.[/quote]

[indent]There is no historical Jesus but it does not mean (true) Christ is a myth. [/indent]

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='reyb' post='1839834' date='Apr 18 2009, 08:36 PM']There is no historical Jesus but it does not mean (true) Christ is a myth.[/quote]Jesus did exist. The Catholics do not believe in a merely symbolical or spiritual figure, but in a concrete historical one. His historicity has been well established. See [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm[/url]

Nobody needs to prove the historical reality of any of the figures in the gospel on this forum. This has received ample treatment in reams of litterature. If you're interested in what a Catholic scholar would say on the topic, read [url="http://www.amazon.com/Everlasting-Man-G-K-Chesterton/dp/0898704448"]The Everlasting Man[/url].

By the way, why do you indent all your text? It makes it harder to read than needs be.

Edited April 19, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='reyb' post='1839832' date='Apr 18 2009, 07:28 PM'][indent]Are you referring to the 12 Apostles in the synoptic gospel? This is a good opportunity for all of us to see and to prove that these 12 Apostles (including all characters in the synoptic gospel like the 3 wise men or kings, Mary and John the carpenter, Pontius Pilate…etc…etc) truly exist in this world more or less 2000 years ago. And since you believed that this ‘gospel’ is a historical reality, can you pleased show some ‘proofs’? Take note, I even heard on TV Archbishop Dolan in New York saying ‘when he visited the Holy Land, they cannot find the ‘Road to Emmaus’.

Please post here any proof. (Let us say, biography of any particular character in the synoptic gospel) [/indent][/quote]



No reputable historian denies the existence of Pontius Pilate.

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1840041' date='Apr 18 2009, 10:36 PM']Jesus did exist. The Catholics do not believe in a merely symbolical or spiritual figure, but in a concrete historical one. His historicity has been well established. See [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm[/url]

Nobody needs to prove the historical reality of any of the figures in the gospel on this forum. This has received ample treatment in reams of litterature. If you're interested in what a Catholic scholar would say on the topic, read [url="http://www.amazon.com/Everlasting-Man-G-K-Chesterton/dp/0898704448"]The Everlasting Man[/url].

By the way, why do you indent all your text? It makes it harder to read than needs be.[/quote]


[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1840053' date='Apr 18 2009, 10:42 PM']

No reputable historian denies the existence of Pontius Pilate.[/quote]

After you said ‘Jesus (historical) did exist’, then you followed it up by saying ‘No reputable historians denied the existence of Jesus (historical)’. This is the dilemma of believers because even historians and non-Christians 'believes' in the existence of historical Jesus although some says, Jesus is just a prophet or a carpenter, or whatever but still they are pointing to one Jesus – the historical Jesus. Thus, I asked, ‘Do you have any tangible evidence, a sort of biography of any character in the gospel including the Pharisees (Caiphas, Annas...etc.)?’.

I want you to take notice (again) what Apostle Paul said in 2 Cor 4:1-6.

[color="#FF0000"]4:1 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. [/color]NIV
---------------------
Now, how can anyone see Christ or how can anyone see the light of the Gospel or the image of God without becoming Christ disciples themselves?

Edited April 19, 2009 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Hilde' post='1835164' date='Apr 14 2009, 10:18 AM']Why are you using "us", plural sense?

And are you saying Jesus is not Jesus?[/quote]

We used the word 'us' referring to 'all witnesses'. Historical Jesus is just an 'interpretation' of a reader to the scripture and not the real Jesus Christ.

[reyb]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1839506' date='Apr 18 2009, 02:28 AM']I would say one of the most conclusive proofs that the Christ of Christianity is the historical Jesus is that nearly all of the twelve apostles died for their faith in the Risen God-Man. I don't know too many people willing to die for something they made up.[/quote]


[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1839518' date='Apr 18 2009, 02:35 AM']Basically if you believe that the Church invented the Catholic understanding of Jesus, you probably also hold that the Apostles were liars. If, however, I were going to invent the story of Jesus' life, I sure would have done a better job than the Apostles at getting my story straight. If you haven't noticed, there are many apparent contradictions between the gospels (note my use of the word [i]apparent[/i].)[/quote]

You are correct if these Characters in your (historical) gospel or (historical) coming of Christ truly exist in this world. In short, you must hold some 'convincing proofs' of their existence otherwise you are just 'believing' such gospel is a historical realtiy.

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='reyb' post='1840696' date='Apr 19 2009, 07:49 PM']After you said ‘Jesus (historical) did exist’, then you followed it up by saying ‘No reputable historians denied the existence of Jesus (historical)’. This is the dilemma of believers because even historians and non-Christians 'believes' in the existence of historical Jesus although some says, Jesus is just a prophet or a carpenter, or whatever but still they are pointing to one Jesus – the historical Jesus. Thus, I asked, ‘Do you have any tangible evidence, a sort of biography of any character in the gospel including the Pharisees (Caiphas, Annas...etc.)?’[/quote]I did point you to what an article summarizing the historical sources. In case you need it, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"][b]here it is again[/b][/url]. As for a character in the gospels, see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][b]Pontius Pilate on Wikipedia[/b][/url], it's a pretty good article.

That some people say Jesus is just a prophet or a carpenter is not a dilemma for believers. Believers simply think these people are wrong, and they've got the historical evidence to show it (again see the newadvent article I linked to).


[quote]I want you to take notice (again) what Apostle Paul said in 2 Cor 4:1-6.

[color="#FF0000"]4:1 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. [/color]Now, how can anyone see Christ or how can anyone see the light of the Gospel or the image of God without becoming Christ disciples themselves?[/quote]Precisely because, as says Saint Paul in that passage you quote, some are blinded.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Dr_Asik

[HisChildForever]

I am getting confused over this. Jesus IS Jesus. There is only one!

[Guest]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1842355' date='Apr 21 2009, 06:28 AM']I am getting confused over this. Jesus IS Jesus. There is only one![/quote]

True but when the antichrist comes at the 6th trump before Christ comes at the 7th he will claim to be Jesus and will even decieve the ellect if that were possible. So if some christians will be decieved it will be because they have recieved a different teaching of Jesus and spirit rather then the authentic one handed down by Catholicism and the Spotless Bride Of Christ.

Edited April 22, 2009 by Guest

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1841603' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:50 PM']I did point you to what an article summarizing the historical sources. In case you need it, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"][b]here it is again[/b][/url]. As for a character in the gospels, see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][b]Pontius Pilate on Wikipedia[/b][/url], it's a pretty good article.[/quote]

take from you link...

[indent]Pilate's biographical details before and after his appointment to Judaea are unknown, but have been supplied by tradition, which include the detail that his wife's name was Claudia (she is canonized as a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church) and competing legends of his birthplace. ------- [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][/indent]

….whose tradition this ‘biography’ of Pontius Pilate comes from?

[Dr_Asik]

[quote name='reyb' post='1845360' date='Apr 23 2009, 11:02 PM']take from you link...

[indent]Pilate's biographical details before and after his appointment to Judaea are unknown, but have been supplied by tradition, which include the detail that his wife's name was Claudia (she is canonized as a saint in the Greek Orthodox Church) and competing legends of his birthplace. ------- [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][/indent]

….whose tradition this ‘biography’ of Pontius Pilate comes from?[/quote]Probably Christian tradition, but I don't know for sure.

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1845391' date='Apr 23 2009, 10:17 PM']Probably Christian tradition, but I don't know for sure.[/quote]

[indent]Are you referring to Roman Catholic's tradition (in particular)?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Dr_Asik' post='1841603' date='Apr 20 2009, 04:50 PM']I did point you to what an article summarizing the historical sources. In case you need it, [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"][b]here it is again[/b][/url]. As for a character in the gospels, see [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate"][b]Pontius Pilate on Wikipedia[/b][/url], it's a pretty good article.

That some people say Jesus is just a prophet or a carpenter is not a dilemma for believers. Believers simply think these people are wrong, and they've got the historical evidence to show it (again see the newadvent article I linked to).


Precisely because, as says Saint Paul in that passage you quote, some are blinded.[/quote]

I do not think you get me, when I said - ‘….how can anyone see Christ or how can anyone see the light of the Gospel or the image of God without becoming Christ disciples themselves? – With 2 Cor 4:1-6 as our reference.

2 Cor 4:1-6 clearly states ‘[color="#FF0000"]The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God[/color]. In short, unbelievers cannot see Christ because the god of this age has blinded them, which also means, and this is without doubt, if anyone see Christ then they will become Christ’ disciples as Apostle Paul said in Heb 6:4-6 ' It is impossible....' (take note).

[color="#FF0000"]It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.[/color]

But this is not the case in your historical Jesus since in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08375a.htm[/url] - there are three classes of sources of historical document pertaining to your historical Jesus (who is supposed to be the Jesus of the scripture) to wit, pagan sources, Jewish sources, and Christian sources.

Now, do these Pagans and Jews really ‘see’ Jesus Christ? (so that we can consider their 'documents' real and not just based on 'hearsay or word-of-mouth'). And if they really 'see' Christ, why then they remain pagans.

Edited April 28, 2009 by reyb

[Dr_Asik]

Oh, all right, now I get what you're saying a little better.

When Saint Paul says God has blinded men so they could not see Christ, this is not to be taken litteraly. First, God haven't made anyone physically blind so that they could not see Jesus; also, it's not just seeing Christ, in person or as revealed by the Gospels or other historical sources; Saint Paul is talking about [b]faith[/b]. When he says God has blinded men, this means he denied them the grace of faith. And this is why Catholics say that faith is always a special gift from God.

In other words, even though everyone can "see" Christ (through the Gospels or through any particular source), not everyone becomes a believer, and this is because it pertains to God to give the grace of faith or to deny it. This is basically how I would interpret that passage from Saint Paul.