The Death Of Historical Jesus - Remembered (again)

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep. Is it round 10 or 12?

[Socrates]

I gave up trying to reason with this character about a year ago. I can only deal with so much incoherent nonsense at a time.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='reyb' post='1834343' date='Apr 13 2009, 05:53 PM'][indent]Knowing and believing are two different things. A faithful can ‘convince’ himself that he can see clearly but actually, he is still blind for having the eyes of faith seeing only in the dark. This is what we can call ‘believing’ or seeing the truth in the eyes of faith but without rational understanding of whatever he believes. Thus in the above verse, the Pharisees are guilty of being hypocrites although they are not aware of it. They thought they are in the light and can see clearly because of faith but in reality, they are still in the dark. If only they learn to ask, seek and knock for the truth then they will realize how their eyes of faith deceived them because they will see the reason and that is, faith is a power but it has no power against the truth.

Many failed to accomplish what Saul (Apostle Paul) have reached for he saw the reality of religiosity during his time after he becomes blind through the coming of the light of God, who is the Christ. Saul becomes ‘blind’ not because of the ‘light of God’ since Christ is the healer and not the deceiver but he becomes blind because, his eyes of faith which have been staying in the dark for too long (for being a Pharisee) suddenly exposed to the light of God and thus, his eyes of faith falter and come to a close – a sort of temporary blindness. Then after this event, he realized his former condition - a deceived blind follower of false faith but he is unaware of it and thus he tried his best to push his fellow believers to seek for the truth to be freed from darkness.

Through faith, you can ‘claim’ everything as truth (after you convince yourself that such thought or ideas are from God) but truth will remain because faith cannot change a lie to become truth and faith will only be holy if it kneeled down in the feet of the Truth – and that is what we call true faith.

Now, I have faith because I saw the truth and not the other way of saying, ‘I see the truth through the eyes of faith’. The former is a faith whose life comes from ‘knowing the truth’ rather than a faith which gives life to a lie as truth by just believing without proper reasoning.

Now to your question: Do you think I can see? If I know I am blind then I can see. But if say I can see, you will tell I am blind. Therefore, I will let you to be my judge. Tell me if I am blind because I know I can see. In short, let me understand your faith and rationalize your belief so that you can judge me that I am wrong. [/indent]

[indent]....the rest, I will answer them later.[/indent][/quote]


It's ok - no need to answer now - your post declares your beliefs for you - probably without you even realizing it.

So I am not going to try to defend the Catholic Church here since I am not an apologist and there are many who are, and who do this beautifully.

I thought your questions were sincere, but it appears they are merely a platform for your own beliefs, which is fine, but rather sneaky. The honest approach would have been to simply state them outright and then ask to debate them.

You and I are in agreement on one point however, although you do not seem to see it (blind???) and that is that faith comes from the Truth. Yes. You say that "knowing and believing are two different things" and I kept saying that "faith and belief are not the same" and it does seem as if we agree on this principle, although obviously not on the outcome. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Truth).

St Paul did not become blind because of his faith - this is a very unusual interpretation of what happened to him. Paul loved God and was sincere and honest in his persecution of the Christians, but he was blind to the Truth they preached. Jesus appeared to Paul as Truth itself and at that moment, very little faith was required (like Thomas, Paul was allowed to "see" in order to believe). Paul was blinded by the light of Truth - a different kind of blindness than that of the Pharisees.

As for judging you brother, that is not mine to do - only God can judge us. As for "rationalizing" my faith, I feel no need to do so. If there is something you particularly wish to understand or know about my faith, then I am more than happy to discuss it with you - but I feel no need to prove it to your satisfaction, especially when it becomes more and more apparent that you really have no interest in my faith, only in proving yours. Please feel free to do so if that is why you are here. This is the debate table after all!! Prove away!

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1834448' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:46 PM']You and I are in agreement on one point however, although you do not seem to see it (blind???) and that is that faith comes from the Truth. Yes. You say that "knowing and believing are two different things" and I kept saying that "faith and belief are not the same" and it does seem as if we agree on this principle, although obviously not on the outcome. Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit (Truth).[/quote]

[indent]Of course, I do understand you on this - true faith comes from truth. Actually all of us wanted it. So the issue leads to the question of 'The Truth' or from whom our known 'Truth' comes from.
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[/indent]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='reyb' post='1834489' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:11 PM'][indent]Of course, I do understand you on this - true faith comes from truth. Actually all of us wanted it. So the issue leads to the question of 'The Truth' or from whom our known 'Truth' comes from.
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[/indent][/quote]
[i]
"...from whom our known 'Truth' comes from."[/i]
Well, then I guess we are in agreement on this next point as well

[b]"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life."[/b] John 14:6


That's [i]from whom [/i]my known 'Truth' comes from -- you too??

[Resurrexi]

I hate the title of this thread. Jesus Christ, true God and true man, redeemer of the world, [i]is [/i]the historical Jesus.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1834573' date='Apr 13 2009, 08:45 PM']I hate the title of this thread. Jesus Christ, true God and true man, redeemer of the world, [i]is [/i]the historical Jesus.[/quote]

AMEN

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1834718' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:39 PM']AMEN [/quote]

Thats what I was gonna say.

[reyb]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1834573' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:45 PM']I hate the title of this thread. Jesus Christ, true God and true man, redeemer of the world, [i]is [/i]the historical Jesus.[/quote]

[indent]
I call him 'historical Jesus' because you believe that Jesus Christ of the Scripture was born/ come in this world more or less 2000 years ago. - This is the reason why I titled him 'historical Jesus'? This is just a reminder - your historical Jesus is up to now a 'belief' (unless of course you can proved to us his existence). [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1834509' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:22 PM'][i]
"...from whom our known 'Truth' comes from."[/i]
Well, then I guess we are in agreement on this next point as well

[b]"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life."[/b] John 14:6


That's [i]from whom [/i]my known 'Truth' comes from -- you too??[/quote]
[indent]

...and you are referring to your historical Jesus? We have a topic about this and I will post something on it for our ready discussion.[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1834439' date='Apr 13 2009, 09:38 PM']I gave up trying to reason with this character about a year ago. I can only deal with so much incoherent nonsense at a time.[/quote]

[indent]How many times will you forgive your brothers? Ah I do not care. (Is this what you mean?) joke only

Brother, let us reason together then we will be together forever.
[/indent]

Edited April 14, 2009 by reyb

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' post='1835049' date='Apr 14 2009, 06:01 AM'][indent]

...and you are referring to your historical Jesus? We have a topic about this and I will post something on it for our ready discussion.[/indent][/quote]
There is only ONE Jesus Christ, and we have discussed this ad nauseum with you. [b]All[/b] the proofs have been discussed in previous threads, so if you don't choose to believe that is your choice. So unless you have some substantial reason why we should NOT beleive in Jesus Christ born 2000 year ago of Jesus and Mary in the lineage of David, Son of God, Savior of the World -this thread is over.

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1835084' date='Apr 14 2009, 08:05 AM']There is only ONE Jesus Christ, and we have discussed this ad nauseum with you. [b]All[/b] the proofs have been discussed in previous threads, so if you don't choose to believe that is your choice. So unless you have some substantial reason why we should NOT beleive in Jesus Christ born 2000 year ago of Jesus and Mary in the lineage of David, Son of God, Savior of the World -this thread is over.[/quote]
[indent]Because I am a witness and they are not referring to historical Jesus. [/indent]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='reyb' post='1835096' date='Apr 14 2009, 10:01 AM'][indent]Because I am a witness and they are not referring to historical Jesus. [/indent][/quote]
No you are not a witness, and yes they are referring to the one and only Jesus. So either come up with something better or the thread goes away.

[reyb]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1835111' date='Apr 14 2009, 08:45 AM']No you are not a witness, and yes they are referring to the one and only Jesus. So either come up with something better or the thread goes away.[/quote]

[indent]What I am supposed to say? Nevertheless, I am still hoping that someday, you (each and every one who are here) will learn to love us. Thank you for inviting me here.

And this is the sign of my love to all of you - I know I will be condemned by many but still I have to tell you - Jesus Christ is not the historical Jesus. Seek him and you will find him and then you will realize I am not lying.

Your brother,

Rey Baltazar C. Tolentino[/indent]