The Death Of Historical Jesus - Remembered (again)

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Moosey' post='1830135' date='Apr 9 2009, 03:38 PM']Could we stay on topic?[/quote]
Way to stifle the natural flow of conversation

[reyb]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1829959' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:23 PM']One reason is because if God did that, then humanity would still have no proof of God's love. That's why St. Augustine says "o happy fault". But that's one short reason.[/quote]

[indent]Is everything you see even your own existence is not enough reason/s to say 'God loves you'?

Thus, God show his love by ‘planning’ to give his Son’s life as a sacrifice or as a ‘replacement’ to where we belong – the eternal death.

Suppose, you are a father of two sons, a good and a bad - Will you ‘sacrifice’ your good son as a ‘replacement’ for your bad son (and therefore, to show your love to your bad son)?[/indent]
[indent]Why God did not just forgive us? Who asked for the death of Jesus as a ‘sign’ of God’s love? Did you asked for it? Did anyone ever say 'Give your son's life and I will believe you love me'. [/indent]

Edited April 9, 2009 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1829944' date='Apr 9 2009, 01:03 PM']Belief and faith are not the same thing - although they have similarities. Faith is a gift of the spirit, and must be desired.

You can lead a horse to water but.....[/quote]

[indent]You said, belief and faith are not the same thing....okay I will repharse my previous post...[/indent]

[indent]Your allegory is different to the question at hand since the relation of gravity and science are obvious and found to be true. While on the other hand, the relation of the death of this historical Jesus and the forgiveness of sins are founded on [color="#0000FF"]‘[b]faith’[/b][/color] – that is why I am asking, ‘how come your sins are forgiven in his death?’[/indent]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='reyb' post='1830270' date='Apr 9 2009, 05:21 PM'][indent]You said, belief and faith are not the same thing....okay I will repharse my previous post...[/indent]

[indent]Your allegory is different to the question at hand since the relation of gravity and science are obvious and found to be true. While on the other hand, the relation of the death of this historical Jesus and the forgiveness of sins are founded on [color="#0000FF"]‘[b]faith’[/b][/color] – that is why I am asking, ‘how come your sins are forgiven in his death?’[/indent][/quote]

That is why I said that it was a matter of faith. To believe something, you can research and study and argue and deduce and balance equations until you are "convinced" of something. Faith, on the other hand requires a leap into an unknown dimension, fearful that you might not be caught but hopeful nonetheless.

I don't know how it was for anyone else here so I don't want this to sound like something you can take apart and analyze and repeat (a la scientific method). I was raised in an agnostic household and religion was something for the weak (you know, the "opiate of the masses"). Faith was equated with religion so I just assumed that faith meant believing in something blindly and without any thought - so I rejected it too, although "religion" and "faith" are not the same thing at all (to me). So my journey to faith has been very experiential. But, I see no point in boring on about "my story" so I will only try to describe as simply as I can, what faith is to me - and perhaps that will lead into "why did Jesus have to die for our sins".

Faith for me equates a little bit to the word "trust". You know that old saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor." Well, unfortunately nobody does trust much anymore because it's just a sad fact of life that not everyone (or everything) can be trusted. But if you do trust someone, then it certainly makes a difference in your relationship with that person. I don't know whether you even believe in God or not, but if you do, the next question is, do you trust Him?

If you don't believe in Him, this whole discussion is pointless in the first place as to why Jesus had to die. But if you do believe in God, the next step is about trusting Him. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, I guess we could say that they didn't really trust Him, or they wouldn't have done the very thing He told them not to do! This lack of trust caused a break in their relationship with God ( and hence our relationship as well). We all know there can't be much of a relationship without trust now, can there?

What Jesus did was to restore the break in the relationship by His total obedience (trust) to the Will of the Father through love. He took onto Himself all of our sins (disobedience) so that He could, through Himself, repair and restore our broken relationship with God. His sacrifice was foreshadowed in a way through Abraham, who, in obedience (trust) to the Will of God, was prepared to sacrifice his own son. Abraham demonstrated complete trust in God and was spared from actually having to go through with the sacrifice by God's mercy.

God then went one step further than Abraham - He offered His own Son as a sacrifice - to show His love for us. Through Jesus He taught us about love, self-sacrifice and mercy. Anything less than the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross would have been incomplete for our salvation.

So how do I know this? Back to square one. Faith.

The second part of your question is more of a "why". Why didn't God do it differently? Why couldn't He has done it without the death of Jesus? etc etc etc.... Yes, we can ask why God doesn't do many things, or why He doesn't do them differently - thinking that WE would be able to think up a better way, a nicer way, a different way.... but to me, that is bordering on presumption -- considering ourselves equal to God. didn't Job ask the very same questions to God about his own life and miseries -- and how did God answer him? "Where were you when I created the heaven and earth?" and so on.

Personally, I can't think of a more beautiful love story than that of our salvation. Just think of that line "For God so loved the world....." wow - how beautiful is that?! Did Jesus suffer horribly? Yes, oh yes, He did suffer so much and then died for us, but He said, "No greater love hath a man..." How could any one of us write a more beautiful love story?

Then finally, and here I don't claim to be a church scholar or to understand all the theology behind it - but through His death, Jesus defeated death. It reminds me a bit of the knight slaying the dragon! After the fall, we were destined to die. After the resurrection, we were given eternal life with Jesus. He killed death - but He had to die to do it!

What are you trying to find with all your questions? And do you really want to find it or not? If it is all just an intellectual exercise, then enjoy it. But if you really want to understand what is being said, you need to do more than open your mind - you need to open your heart as well.

God bless you on your journey.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1830288' date='Apr 9 2009, 08:03 PM']That is why I said that it was a matter of faith. To believe something, you can research and study and argue and deduce and balance equations until you are "convinced" of something. Faith, on the other hand requires a leap into an unknown dimension, fearful that you might not be caught but hopeful nonetheless.

I don't know how it was for anyone else here so I don't want this to sound like something you can take apart and analyze and repeat (a la scientific method). I was raised in an agnostic household and religion was something for the weak (you know, the "opiate of the masses"). Faith was equated with religion so I just assumed that faith meant believing in something blindly and without any thought - so I rejected it too, although "religion" and "faith" are not the same thing at all (to me). So my journey to faith has been very experiential. But, I see no point in boring on about "my story" so I will only try to describe as simply as I can, what faith is to me - and perhaps that will lead into "why did Jesus have to die for our sins".

Faith for me equates a little bit to the word "trust". You know that old saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor." Well, unfortunately nobody does trust much anymore because it's just a sad fact of life that not everyone (or everything) can be trusted. But if you do trust someone, then it certainly makes a difference in your relationship with that person. I don't know whether you even believe in God or not, but if you do, the next question is, do you trust Him?

God Bless you Nunsense, and praised be Older Brother Yeshua, the Father, and the Holy Spirit for having loved you into existence.
If you don't believe in Him, this whole discussion is pointless in the first place as to why Jesus had to die. But if you do believe in God, the next step is about trusting Him. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, I guess we could say that they didn't really trust Him, or they wouldn't have done the very thing He told them not to do! This lack of trust caused a break in their relationship with God ( and hence our relationship as well). We all know there can't be much of a relationship without trust now, can there?

What Jesus did was to restore the break in the relationship by His total obedience (trust) to the Will of the Father through love. He took onto Himself all of our sins (disobedience) so that He could, through Himself, repair and restore our broken relationship with God. His sacrifice was foreshadowed in a way through Abraham, who, in obedience (trust) to the Will of God, was prepared to sacrifice his own son. Abraham demonstrated complete trust in God and was spared from actually having to go through with the sacrifice by God's mercy.

God then went one step further than Abraham - He offered His own Son as a sacrifice - to show His love for us. Through Jesus He taught us about love, self-sacrifice and mercy. Anything less than the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross would have been incomplete for our salvation.

So how do I know this? Back to square one. Faith.

The second part of your question is more of a "why". Why didn't God do it differently? Why couldn't He has done it without the death of Jesus? etc etc etc.... Yes, we can ask why God doesn't do many things, or why He doesn't do them differently - thinking that WE would be able to think up a better way, a nicer way, a different way.... but to me, that is bordering on presumption -- considering ourselves equal to God. didn't Job ask the very same questions to God about his own life and miseries -- and how did God answer him? "Where were you when I created the heaven and earth?" and so on.

Personally, I can't think of a more beautiful love story than that of our salvation. Just think of that line "For God so loved the world....." wow - how beautiful is that?! Did Jesus suffer horribly? Yes, oh yes, He did suffer so much and then died for us, but He said, "No greater love hath a man..." How could any one of us write a more beautiful love story?

Then finally, and here I don't claim to be a church scholar or to understand all the theology behind it - but through His death, Jesus defeated death. It reminds me a bit of the knight slaying the dragon! After the fall, we were destined to die. After the resurrection, we were given eternal life with Jesus. He killed death - but He had to die to do it!

What are you trying to find with all your questions? And do you really want to find it or not? If it is all just an intellectual exercise, then enjoy it. But if you really want to understand what is being said, you need to do more than open your mind - you need to open your heart as well.

God bless you on your journey. [/quote]

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1830288' date='Apr 9 2009, 08:03 PM']That is why I said that it was a matter of faith. To believe something, you can research and study and argue and deduce and balance equations until you are "convinced" of something. Faith, on the other hand requires a leap into an unknown dimension, fearful that you might not be caught but hopeful nonetheless.

I don't know how it was for anyone else here so I don't want this to sound like something you can take apart and analyze and repeat (a la scientific method). I was raised in an agnostic household and religion was something for the weak (you know, the "opiate of the masses"). Faith was equated with religion so I just assumed that faith meant believing in something blindly and without any thought - so I rejected it too, although "religion" and "faith" are not the same thing at all (to me). So my journey to faith has been very experiential. But, I see no point in boring on about "my story" so I will only try to describe as simply as I can, what faith is to me - and perhaps that will lead into "why did Jesus have to die for our sins".

Faith for me equates a little bit to the word "trust". You know that old saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor." Well, unfortunately nobody does trust much anymore because it's just a sad fact of life that not everyone (or everything) can be trusted. But if you do trust someone, then it certainly makes a difference in your relationship with that person. I don't know whether you even believe in God or not, but if you do, the next question is, do you trust Him?

God Bless you Nunsense, and praised be Older Brother Yeshua, the Father, and the Holy Spirit for having loved you into existence.
If you don't believe in Him, this whole discussion is pointless in the first place as to why Jesus had to die. But if you do believe in God, the next step is about trusting Him. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, I guess we could say that they didn't really trust Him, or they wouldn't have done the very thing He told them not to do! This lack of trust caused a break in their relationship with God ( and hence our relationship as well). We all know there can't be much of a relationship without trust now, can there?

What Jesus did was to restore the break in the relationship by His total obedience (trust) to the Will of the Father through love. He took onto Himself all of our sins (disobedience) so that He could, through Himself, repair and restore our broken relationship with God. His sacrifice was foreshadowed in a way through Abraham, who, in obedience (trust) to the Will of God, was prepared to sacrifice his own son. Abraham demonstrated complete trust in God and was spared from actually having to go through with the sacrifice by God's mercy.

God then went one step further than Abraham - He offered His own Son as a sacrifice - to show His love for us. Through Jesus He taught us about love, self-sacrifice and mercy. Anything less than the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross would have been incomplete for our salvation.

So how do I know this? Back to square one. Faith.

The second part of your question is more of a "why". Why didn't God do it differently? Why couldn't He has done it without the death of Jesus? etc etc etc.... Yes, we can ask why God doesn't do many things, or why He doesn't do them differently - thinking that WE would be able to think up a better way, a nicer way, a different way.... but to me, that is bordering on presumption -- considering ourselves equal to God. didn't Job ask the very same questions to God about his own life and miseries -- and how did God answer him? "Where were you when I created the heaven and earth?" and so on.

Personally, I can't think of a more beautiful love story than that of our salvation. Just think of that line "For God so loved the world....." wow - how beautiful is that?! Did Jesus suffer horribly? Yes, oh yes, He did suffer so much and then died for us, but He said, "No greater love hath a man..." How could any one of us write a more beautiful love story?

Then finally, and here I don't claim to be a church scholar or to understand all the theology behind it - but through His death, Jesus defeated death. It reminds me a bit of the knight slaying the dragon! After the fall, we were destined to die. After the resurrection, we were given eternal life with Jesus. He killed death - but He had to die to do it!

What are you trying to find with all your questions? And do you really want to find it or not? If it is all just an intellectual exercise, then enjoy it. But if you really want to understand what is being said, you need to do more than open your mind - you need to open your heart as well.

God bless you on your journey. [/quote]

God Bless you Nunsense!!! Praised be ourFather, our Older Brother Yeshua, and our loving Holy-Spirit for having loved you into existence.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1829526' date='Apr 9 2009, 12:14 AM']It was necessary for Jesus to day because of Original Sin first and foremost. Man had no hope of going to Heaven because of man had sinned against God. For example, the severity of the crime depends not only on what has been commited but also on who it has been commited against. Since God is the Infinite Goodness, to assuage an offense against Him, the punishment would have to be Infinitely Harsh since no other punishment would be fitting. Since God is also Eternal, the punishment would also have to be Eternal. Humans are neither eternal nor infinitely good, and so we could not pay the price. But Jesus, being both God and Man is both Eternal and Infinitely Good. He lost His life, paid the price, and gave us a chance at reaching Heaven. Now, we need to accept the victory of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah and cooperate with God's grace in order to go to Heaven.[/quote]



This is the satisfaction theory of atonement, proposed by St. Anselm. It is fascinating to see how a theological speculation has become to seem so integral to the very fabric of Christianity ... but it is not. It is a really good explanation, and probably the best one.

Protestants take the theory and put a "negative" spin on it ... Jesus was punished in our place and satisfied God's justice (which we could not,) thus winning our salvation. The original Catholic theory though is more "positive" Jesus supplies the honor due God (which we could not,) thus winning our salvation.

Same result, different paths. Kind of.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1830368' date='Apr 9 2009, 10:51 PM']This is the satisfaction theory of atonement, proposed by St. Anselm. It is fascinating to see how a theological speculation has become to seem so integral to the very fabric of Christianity ... but it is not. It is a really good explanation, and probably the best one.

Protestants take the theory and put a "negative" spin on it ... Jesus was punished in our place and satisfied God's justice (which we could not,) thus winning our salvation. The original Catholic theory though is more "positive" Jesus supplies the honor due God (which we could not,) thus winning our salvation.

Same result, different paths. Kind of.[/quote]

I like your signature lilllabettt. And thanks so much for your post!!!

Edited April 10, 2009 by saintwannabe 777

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1830288' date='Apr 9 2009, 08:03 PM']That is why I said that it was a matter of faith. To believe something, you can research and study and argue and deduce and balance equations until you are "convinced" of something. Faith, on the other hand requires a leap into an unknown dimension, fearful that you might not be caught but hopeful nonetheless.

I don't know how it was for anyone else here so I don't want this to sound like something you can take apart and analyze and repeat (a la scientific method). I was raised in an agnostic household and religion was something for the weak (you know, the "opiate of the masses"). Faith was equated with religion so I just assumed that faith meant believing in something blindly and without any thought - so I rejected it too, although "religion" and "faith" are not the same thing at all (to me). So my journey to faith has been very experiential. But, I see no point in boring on about "my story" so I will only try to describe as simply as I can, what faith is to me - and perhaps that will lead into "why did Jesus have to die for our sins".

Faith for me equates a little bit to the word "trust". You know that old saying "Trust me, I'm a doctor." Well, unfortunately nobody does trust much anymore because it's just a sad fact of life that not everyone (or everything) can be trusted. But if you do trust someone, then it certainly makes a difference in your relationship with that person. I don't know whether you even believe in God or not, but if you do, the next question is, do you trust Him?

If you don't believe in Him, this whole discussion is pointless in the first place as to why Jesus had to die. But if you do believe in God, the next step is about trusting Him. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, I guess we could say that they didn't really trust Him, or they wouldn't have done the very thing He told them not to do! This lack of trust caused a break in their relationship with God ( and hence our relationship as well). We all know there can't be much of a relationship without trust now, can there?

What Jesus did was to restore the break in the relationship by His total obedience (trust) to the Will of the Father through love. He took onto Himself all of our sins (disobedience) so that He could, through Himself, repair and restore our broken relationship with God. His sacrifice was foreshadowed in a way through Abraham, who, in obedience (trust) to the Will of God, was prepared to sacrifice his own son. Abraham demonstrated complete trust in God and was spared from actually having to go through with the sacrifice by God's mercy.

God then went one step further than Abraham - He offered His own Son as a sacrifice - to show His love for us. Through Jesus He taught us about love, self-sacrifice and mercy. Anything less than the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross would have been incomplete for our salvation.

So how do I know this? Back to square one. Faith.

The second part of your question is more of a "why". Why didn't God do it differently? Why couldn't He has done it without the death of Jesus? etc etc etc.... Yes, we can ask why God doesn't do many things, or why He doesn't do them differently - thinking that WE would be able to think up a better way, a nicer way, a different way.... but to me, that is bordering on presumption -- considering ourselves equal to God. didn't Job ask the very same questions to God about his own life and miseries -- and how did God answer him? "Where were you when I created the heaven and earth?" and so on.

Personally, I can't think of a more beautiful love story than that of our salvation. Just think of that line "For God so loved the world....." wow - how beautiful is that?! Did Jesus suffer horribly? Yes, oh yes, He did suffer so much and then died for us, but He said, "No greater love hath a man..." How could any one of us write a more beautiful love story?

Then finally, and here I don't claim to be a church scholar or to understand all the theology behind it - but through His death, Jesus defeated death. It reminds me a bit of the knight slaying the dragon! After the fall, we were destined to die. After the resurrection, we were given eternal life with Jesus. He killed death - but He had to die to do it!

What are you trying to find with all your questions? And do you really want to find it or not? If it is all just an intellectual exercise, then enjoy it. But if you really want to understand what is being said, you need to do more than open your mind - you need to open your heart as well.

God bless you on your journey. [/quote]


[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1830358' date='Apr 9 2009, 10:28 PM']God Bless you Nunsense!!! Praised be ourFather, our Older Brother Yeshua, and our loving Holy-Spirit for having loved you into existence.[/quote]


[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1830368' date='Apr 9 2009, 10:51 PM']This is the satisfaction theory of atonement, proposed by St. Anselm. It is fascinating to see how a theological speculation has become to seem so integral to the very fabric of Christianity ... but it is not. It is a really good explanation, and probably the best one.

Protestants take the theory and put a "negative" spin on it ... Jesus was punished in our place and satisfied God's justice (which we could not,) thus winning our salvation. The original Catholic theory though is more "positive" Jesus supplies the honor due God (which we could not,) thus winning our salvation.

Same result, different paths. Kind of.[/quote]

[indent]Therefore, it is your ‘faith’ that works and you have no idea how your sins are forgiven thru the death this historical Jesus other than firm belief and trust to this idea that it is from God.

Whether from Catholic or Protestant’s point of view (theory of atonement), both are based on a premise that the death of this historical Jesus is truly binding and effective because of faith. Therefore, faith itself is your reason in accepted this idea and not because of any other reason tangible and comprehensible. If this is the case, what is the difference between the old sacrifice (atonement of sins by offering bulls, goats…etc, etc) and the new sacrifice (atonement of sins thru the death of historical Jesus) if faith is the reason in accepting an idea that it is from God?[/indent]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='reyb' post='1832201' date='Apr 11 2009, 05:31 PM'][indent]Therefore, it is your ‘faith’ that works and you have no idea how your sins are forgiven thru the death this historical Jesus other than firm belief and trust to this idea that it is from God.

Whether from Catholic or Protestant’s point of view (theory of atonement), both are based on a premise that the death of this historical Jesus is truly binding and effective because of faith. Therefore, faith itself is your reason in accepted this idea and not because of any other reason tangible and comprehensible. If this is the case, what is the difference between the old sacrifice (atonement of sins by offering bulls, goats…etc, etc) and the new sacrifice (atonement of sins thru the death of historical Jesus) if faith is the reason in accepting an idea that it is from God?[/indent][/quote]

You seem to be implying that it is "faith" that makes the sacrifice acceptable as reparation, but this is incorrect. Faith is the gift by which we are able to "hear" the Truth, not the belief that makes it true. I think you have misunderstood what I said about faith -- it is NOT the same as belief, although it makes belief possible. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and is given to those who truly desire to know Truth.

The theology of the difference between the old sacrifice of animals in the old covenant and that of Jesus in the new convenant has been addressed by many theologians throughout the years, and since I am no theologian, I won't attempt to do so. There are others on this forum who could do so, I know, and there even may be topics in the Apolgetics section that deal with this. I heard a wonderful talk by a Hebrew Catholic that expained it so well to me, but I am afraid that I could not remember or repeat it here and do it justice. I do understand that the sacrifice of animals prefigured the sacrifice of Jesus but had no power to take away sins. St Paul addresses this issue many times in the Scriptures. I do suggest reading his letters to have it explained by someone who had lived both the old and the new convenant!

You are never going to understand just by debating - your heart needs to be touched too.

This is just my suggestion, but why don't you read a few really good books on theology or apologetics first and try to satisfy your mind this way - this will address a lot of the questions you seem to have. That takes care of the intellectual hunger.

To take care of the spiritual hunger, why don't you do something really radical? Why don't you spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and let Jesus speak to your heart? Attend Mass a few times and let it wash over you. My brother, who is an agnostic, will attend Mass with his Catholic wife to please her, and he always tells me that he feels a sense of peace afterwards. He hasn't converted but he does acknowledge that there is something he doesn't really understand, but can feel. He doesn't realize it, but this is the "Real Presence" of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament that he is experiencing.

There's more here than meets the eye!

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1832256' date='Apr 11 2009, 09:10 PM']You seem to be implying that it is "faith" that makes the sacrifice acceptable as reparation, but this is incorrect. Faith is the gift by which we are able to "hear" the Truth, not the belief that makes it true. I think you have misunderstood what I said about faith -- it is NOT the same as belief, although it makes belief possible. It is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and is given to those who truly desire to know Truth.[/quote]

[indent]We know faith is faith and to the faithful whatever he believes, is always truth to him just like you said [color="#0000FF"]‘… To believe something, you can research and study and argue and deduce and balance equations until you are "convinced" of something. Faith, on the other hand requires a leap into an unknown dimension, fearful that you might not be caught but hopeful nonetheless [/color]‘.In short, after you convinced yourself and learn to accept whatever it is, it becomes truth to you not because such ‘idea’ is sensible, logical or rational truth but because of ‘faith’. Actually your faith works even before you learn a little more from what you already have because of the definition of faith itself – that is belief in, devotion to, or trust in somebody or something, especially without logical proof (thus, I can say even atheist have faith too because they believe in themselves that there is no God while they have no proof at all).

This is the reason why I said, it is your ‘faith’ that works and you have no idea how your sins are forgiven thru the death of this historical Jesus.

Thus in the beginning of this post and I will say it again.

Since you are the one (Catholics or Protestants) believe that your sins are forgiven thru the death of Jesus Christ more or less 2000 years ago. How come this death of historical Jesus redeemed your soul and your sins are forgiven? Can you please explain it to us other than faith?[/indent]
-------------------
[indent]......Or such belief cannot be rationalized at all. (just accept it as it is - something like that ? ).[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1830358' date='Apr 9 2009, 10:28 PM']God Bless you Nunsense!!! Praised be ourFather, our Older Brother Yeshua, and our loving Holy-Spirit for having loved you into existence.[/quote]

[indent]Since we know the downside of faith – from where even a ‘lie’ seems to look like ‘truth’ in the eyes of a faithful - it is now imperative, if we want true faith, to know if our belief is inline with the truth, otherwise and more likely than not, you will end up believing a lie.

How will you know the truth if you will always accept truths founded on ‘faith’ without rationalization? Are you a blind follower?[/indent]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='reyb' post='1832776' date='Apr 12 2009, 09:48 AM'][indent]Since we know the downside of faith – from where even a ‘lie’ seems to look like ‘truth’ in the eyes of a faithful - it is now imperative, if we want true faith, to know if our belief is inline with the truth, otherwise and more likely than not, you will end up believing a lie.

How will you know the truth if you will always accept truths founded on ‘faith’ without rationalization? Are you a blind follower?[/indent][/quote]


You said, "Are you a blind follower?" I will answer that with the words of Jesus,

[i]Jesus said: It is for judgement that I have come into this world, so that those without sight may see and those with sight may become blind.

Hearing this, some Pharisees who were present said to him, 'So we are blind, are we?'

Jesus replied: If you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say, 'We can see,' your guilt remains. [/i]
John 9:39-41

My question to you is, "Do you think you can see?"

Back to your original question, why did Jesus have to die for our sins?

Man has nothing to offer God that can atone for sin, and what he can offer is only of finite value. Jesus is both God and man and thus is able to provide a sacrifice of infinite value to God for our redemption. Man's sins against God deserve death (the wages of sin is death). Jesus' death satisfies all of the requirements for salvation.

Why did God do this? He did it because he is both righteous and loving. Because he is righteous, God cannot overlook sin. He must punish it with death. Because he is loving, he provided a sinless substitute to bear our sin and to take God's wrath for us.

God is so holy that we can't begin to comprehend this - we are so full of sin that we are blind to what His holiness is like. Every sin is such an offence against His holiness - it is worse than children spitting on their parents! But His love is as infinite as His holiness, and He doesn't want us to be separated from Him, so He offered the sacrifice to pay for our disobedience and sin - this is a true act of loving kindness. And our focus needs to be not on His wrath (which is justified) but on His compassion and mercy, which enabled Him to suffer for us (even though we were at fault!).

Before any of this debate can mean anything to you, several paramaters have to be established - or it ends up in circles that go nowhere.

Is there a God? Is Jesus God? Was Jesus killed? Did Jesus rise from the dead again?

Without this foundation, the specifics really can't have much meaning for you. According to the Catechism of the Church, this is the answer...

[u]Did Jesus have to suffer and die to save us?[/u]

[i]Jesus did not have to suffer and die to save us, but he freely chose to do so. (606, 609)
I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. No one takes it from me; on the contrary, I lay it down on my own (Jn 10:11, 18). [/i]

I am happy to discuss this with you, but you don't answer any of my questions about what you believe, so it is hard to know if we are standing on sand or mud or concrete here! Give me a little help as to what it is you believe and what you are searching for here?? Peace.

Edited April 12, 2009 by nunsense

[reyb]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1832906' date='Apr 12 2009, 03:57 PM']You said, "Are you a blind follower?" I will answer that with the words of Jesus,

[i]Jesus said: It is for judgement that I have come into this world, so that those without sight may see and those with sight may become blind.

Hearing this, some Pharisees who were present said to him, 'So we are blind, are we?'

Jesus replied: If you were blind, you would not be guilty, but since you say, 'We can see,' your guilt remains. [/i]
John 9:39-41

My question to you is, "Do you think you can see?"[/quote]

[indent]Knowing and believing are two different things. A faithful can ‘convince’ himself that he can see clearly but actually, he is still blind for having the eyes of faith seeing only in the dark. This is what we can call ‘believing’ or seeing the truth in the eyes of faith but without rational understanding of whatever he believes. Thus in the above verse, the Pharisees are guilty of being hypocrites although they are not aware of it. They thought they are in the light and can see clearly because of faith but in reality, they are still in the dark. If only they learn to ask, seek and knock for the truth then they will realize how their eyes of faith deceived them because they will see the reason and that is, faith is a power but it has no power against the truth.

Many failed to accomplish what Saul (Apostle Paul) have reached for he saw the reality of religiosity during his time after he becomes blind through the coming of the light of God, who is the Christ. Saul becomes ‘blind’ not because of the ‘light of God’ since Christ is the healer and not the deceiver but he becomes blind because, his eyes of faith which have been staying in the dark for too long (for being a Pharisee) suddenly exposed to the light of God and thus, his eyes of faith falter and come to a close – a sort of temporary blindness. Then after this event, he realized his former condition - a deceived blind follower of false faith but he is unaware of it and thus he tried his best to push his fellow believers to seek for the truth to be freed from darkness.

Through faith, you can ‘claim’ everything as truth (after you convince yourself that such thought or ideas are from God) but truth will remain because faith cannot change a lie to become truth and faith will only be holy if it kneeled down in the feet of the Truth – and that is what we call true faith.

Now, I have faith because I saw the truth and not the other way of saying, ‘I see the truth through the eyes of faith’. The former is a faith whose life comes from ‘knowing the truth’ rather than a faith which gives life to a lie as truth by just believing without proper reasoning.

Now to your question: Do you think I can see? If I know I am blind then I can see. But if say I can see, you will tell I am blind. Therefore, I will let you to be my judge. Tell me if I am blind because I know I can see. In short, let me understand your faith and rationalize your belief so that you can judge me that I am wrong. [/indent]

[indent]....the rest, I will answer them later.[/indent]

[Galloglasses' Alt]

Awww not this craic again!