Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830526' date='Apr 10 2009, 02:39 AM']Yes, I read your post, and I disagreed with your conclusion.[/quote][quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830527' date='Apr 10 2009, 02:41 AM']This is false. The opinions of two popes are no more valid than the opinions of two legislators or two housewives.[/quote]Well if what I read from you is what you object to, then unfortunately you have zero comprehension of what I proposed. Sorry. Sorry you disagree with the Pope... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830418' date='Apr 9 2009, 09:46 PM']Pope Benedict XVI from my understanding has also opposed the war. One could say this is just the opinion of two Popes, but the opinions of the Popes do carry some weight, moreover when they actively speak out about it.[/quote] Here is what you said, and I can say, as a Catholic, and as one who formally has studied theology, that your opinion has no foundation in Catholic tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830529' date='Apr 10 2009, 12:43 AM']Sorry you disagree with the Pope...[/quote] There is no need to be sorry, because there is no need for a Catholic to agree with the opinions of a pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830530' date='Apr 10 2009, 02:44 AM']Here is what you said, and I can say, as a Catholic, and as one who formally has studied theology, that your opinion has no foundation in Catholic tradition.[/quote][quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830531' date='Apr 10 2009, 02:46 AM']There is no need to be sorry, because there is no need for a Catholic to agree with the opinions of a pope.[/quote]When did I suggest that a Catholic must agree with any opinions of the Popes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830536' date='Apr 10 2009, 12:50 AM']When did I suggest that a Catholic must agree with any opinions of the Popes?[/quote] You have said that the pope's opinion carries some weight, which is false. The pope's opinion carries no greater weight than any other man's opinion. So if, for example, the present pope thought that Algebra I and Geometry should be taught to high school students concurrently, no one would be obliged to accept that opinion as valid, nor would a person even have to give "some weight" to that opinion. Educators would be free to completely ignore the pope's opinion on how and when Algebra I and Geometry should be taught in high school. Edited April 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830540' date='Apr 10 2009, 02:55 AM']You have said that the pope's opinion carries some weight, which is false. The pope's opinion carries no greater weight than any other man's opinion. So if, for example, the present pope thought that Algebra I and Geometry should be taught to high school students concurrently, no one would be obliged to accept that opinion as valid, nor would a person even have to give "some weight" to that opinion. Educators would be free to completely ignore the pope's opinion on how and when Algebra I and Geometry should be taught in high school.[/quote]So a doctor’s opinions concerning health are worthless and are just the same as anyone else’s? I hope you don’t say that to your doctor. Edited April 10, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830544' date='Apr 10 2009, 12:59 AM']So a doctor’s opinions concerning health are worthless and are just the same as anyone else’s?[/quote] When I contracted viral encephalitis I got more than one medical opinion on how to proceed with treatment. But your analogy is a poor one, because the decision to go to war is not a decision that the pope has any right to make, nor is he qualified to make it. That decision, according to Catholic doctrine, is left to the proper civil authorities. If the U.S. invasion of Iraq was immoral, the pope should have declared that to be the case through an official pronouncement, and yet he did not do that. The pope's personal opinions are irrelevant when it comes to a Catholic making a moral judgment in a given situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830548' date='Apr 10 2009, 03:04 AM']When I contracted viral encephalitis I got more than one medical opinion on how to proceed with treatment. But your analogy is a poor one, because the decision to go to war is not a decision that the pope has any right to make, nor is he qualified to make it. That decision, according to Catholic doctrine, is left to the proper civil authorities. If the U.S. invasion of Iraq was immoral, the pope should have declared that to be the case through an official pronouncement, and yet he did not do that. The pope's personal opinions are irrelevant when it comes to a Catholic making a moral judgment in a given situation.[/quote]But yet you get a medical opinion, so the opinion of a doctor does carry some weight. If it was worthless and was the same as anyone else’s, you wouldn’t seek it. Unless you actually address what I proposed I am going to leave this alone, there is no point to argue against a straw man argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830552' date='Apr 10 2009, 01:07 AM']But yet you get a medical opinion, so the opinion of a doctor does carry some weight. If it was worthless and was the same as anyone else’s, you wouldn’t seek it. Unless you actually address what I proposed I am going to leave this alone, there is no point to argue against a straw man argument.[/quote] A doctor is qualified to give an opinion on a medical issue. But the pope is not qualified to give an expert opinion, according to Catholic doctrine, on whether or not a nation should go to war, for that power has been entrusted to the prudential judgment of the proper civil authorities. The personal opinions of the pope are theologically irrelevant. Edited April 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830552' date='Apr 10 2009, 01:07 AM']But yet you get a medical opinion, so the opinion of a doctor does carry some weight. If it was worthless and was the same as anyone else’s, you wouldn’t seek it. Unless you actually address what I proposed I am going to leave this alone, there is no point to argue against a straw man argument.[/quote] I have addressed what you proposed, and hold your position to be heretical. It is sad that you hold a viewpoint that is contrary to Catholic doctrine, i.e., that the pope's personal opinion has more weight than the opinion of another man, but such is life. Edited April 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830568' date='Apr 10 2009, 03:17 AM']A doctor is qualified to give an opinion on a medical issue, but the pope is not qualified to give that type of opinion, according to Catholic doctrine, on whether or not a nation should go to war, for that power has been entrusted to the prudential judgment of the proper civil authorities.[/quote]So the massive education of the Pope and the mere fact of holding the Papacy, which is instrumental in instruction of the faithful, and are worthless and is just like anyone else to you? Well, if you think this, I think you have some serious problems.[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830571' date='Apr 10 2009, 03:19 AM']I have addressed what you proposed, and hold your position to be heretical. It is sad that you hold a viewpoint that is contrary to Catholic doctrine, i.e., that the pope's personal opinion has more weight that the opinion of another man, but such is life.[/quote]No, you have not... And no I do not... Maybe its the full moon on you... Edited April 10, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximilianus Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830460' date='Apr 10 2009, 12:11 AM']Islamic Terrorism: Millions? really? do you have any stats?[/quote] Could you please reciprocate and provide some facts for the following? [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830460' date='Apr 10 2009, 12:11 AM']Our government is by far the World's #1 terrorist. We have invaded numerous sovereign nations, and killed thousands simply for their political beliefs.[/quote] I'd like to know what countries we invaded purely for political antipathy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830572' date='Apr 10 2009, 01:20 AM']So the massive education of the Pope and the mere fact of holding the Papacy, which is instrumental in instruction of the faithful, and are worthless and is just like anyone else to you? Well, if you think this, I think you have some serious problems.No, you have not... And no I do not... You must be drunk beacuse you are making zero sense to me... Sorry...[/quote] Let me be blunt then: the pope's opinion on the war in Iraq is irrelevant. His personal opinion is no more valid than mine or yours for that matter. That you seem to be incapable of grasping this fact is sad, but as I said before, "such is life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830572' date='Apr 10 2009, 01:20 AM']So the massive education of the Pope and the mere fact of holding the Papacy, which is instrumental in instruction of the faithful, and are worthless and is just like anyone else to you? Well, if you think this, I think you have some serious problems.No, you have not...[/quote] Becoming pope does absolutely nothing for a man's personal opinion. Many popes have been wrong on matters of opinion, and one was even condemned by an ecumenical council for holding an opinion that gave aid and comfort to the Monothelite heretics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830578' date='Apr 10 2009, 03:25 AM']Let me be blunt then: the pope's opinion on the war in Iraq is irrelevant. His personal opinion is no more valid than mine or yours for that matter. That you seem to be incapable of grasping this fact is sad, but as I said before, "such is life."[/quote]Straw man, thank you for taking up my time, its always a pleasure.[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830580' date='Apr 10 2009, 03:27 AM']Becoming pope does absolutely nothing for a man's personal opinion. Many popes have been wrong on matters of opinion, and one was even condemned by an ecumenical council for holding an opinion that gave aid and comfort to the Monothelite heretics.[/quote]So? You just don't get it... Edited April 10, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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