Madame Vengier Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830195' date='Apr 9 2009, 07:21 PM']Since when are we as a sovereign nation obligated to defend the morally dubious state of Israel? I don't believe in "terrorism" as you define it. A lot of nation states kill more civilians than terrorists. Even if Saddam funded terrorism, is it prudent for us to invade Iraq? Even the Church came out against this war. I see no response to torture.... I guess that's not immoral anymore? [/quote] Israel morally dubious?? I think you know very, very little about Israel. But since you have your mind made up, I won't bother trying to enlighten you. What nation states are killing more civilians than terrorists? Please, inquiring minds would love to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 B, probably a lower B, but still much better than what many people think. I liked him, though he made some mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830195' date='Apr 9 2009, 04:21 PM']Even the Church came out against this war.[/quote] The Church had no official position on the war. Edited April 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1830265' date='Apr 9 2009, 07:17 PM']Israel morally dubious?? I think you know very, very little about Israel. But since you have your mind made up, I won't bother trying to enlighten you. What nation states are killing more civilians than terrorists? Please, inquiring minds would love to know.[/quote] I know a lot about Israel. I have studied Israel extensively in school and out of school. This state has killed more civilians than any "terrorist" group that I am aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830333' date='Apr 9 2009, 10:38 PM']I know a lot about Israel. I have studied Israel extensively in school and out of school. This state has killed more civilians than any "terrorist" group that I am aware of.[/quote] So, you mean "in the millions"? Tiny little Israel has killed "in the millions"? Because in order to have superceded Islamic terrorists, they would have to have killed in the millions. How really shameful and appalling your untruths are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I voted C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1830346' date='Apr 9 2009, 11:09 PM']So, you mean "in the millions"? Tiny little Israel has killed "in the millions"? Because in order to have superceded Islamic terrorists, they would have to have killed in the millions. How really shameful and appalling your untruths are.[/quote] I think when he said "this state," he was referring to the United States...abortion specifically. That's what I exrapolated. But then again, I couldn't tell 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xTrishaxLynnx Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I decided on a B. I just like the guy, and I feel like he really tried and did what he thought was best. And no matter what he did, I'm pretty sure we're in for much worse now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830309' date='Apr 9 2009, 08:57 PM']The Church had no official position on the war.[/quote][quote][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II"][b]John Paul II - Iraq War[/b][/url] In 2003 John Paul II also became a prominent critic of the 2003 US-led invasion of Iraq.In his 2003 State of the World address the Pope declared his opposition to the invasion by stating, "No to war! War is not always inevitable. It is always a defeat for humanity." He sent former Apostolic Pro-Nuncio to the United States Pío Cardinal Laghi to talk with American President George W. Bush to express opposition to the war. John Paul II said that it was up to the United Nations to solve the international conflict through diplomacy and that a unilateral aggression is a crime against peace and a violation of international law. “Wars generally do not resolve the problems for which they are fought and therefore... prove ultimately futile.” - Pope John Paul II[/quote]Pope Benedict XVI from my understanding has also opposed the war. One could say this is just the opinion of two Popes, but the opinions of the Popes do carry some weight, moreover when they actively speak out about it. Edited April 10, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1830346' date='Apr 9 2009, 10:09 PM']So, you mean "in the millions"? Tiny little Israel has killed "in the millions"? Because in order to have superceded Islamic terrorists, they would have to have killed in the millions. How really shameful and appalling your untruths are.[/quote] Tiny Little Israel indiscriminately bombs high population areas, killing thousands of civilians. I don't think they have killed millions, but I wasn't referring to Israel, I was referring to the United States. Our government is by far the World's #1 terrorist. We have invaded numerous sovereign nations, and killed thousands simply for their political beliefs. Islamic Terrorism: Millions? really? do you have any stats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830418' date='Apr 9 2009, 09:46 PM']Pope Benedict XVI from my understanding has also opposed the war. One could say this is just the opinion of two Popes, but the opinions of the Popes do carry some weight, moreover when they actively speak out about it.[/quote] Pope John Paul did not issue an official pronouncement on the Iraq war. As far as his personal opposition to the war is concerned, no one has to agree with him on the issue. I can say categorically that I disagreed with him then, and my opposition to his personal views on the matter remains unchanged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830418' date='Apr 9 2009, 09:46 PM']. . . but the opinions of the Popes do carry some weight, moreover when they actively speak out about it.[/quote] The personal opinions of two popes or two hundred popes carries no more weight -- morally or theologically -- than the personal opinion of any other man or group of men. Edited April 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830475' date='Apr 10 2009, 01:34 AM']Pope John Paul did not issue an official pronouncement on the Iraq war. As far as his personal opposition to the war is concerned, no one has to agree with him on the issue. I can say categorically that I disagreed with him then, and my opposition to his personal views on the matter remains unchanged.[/quote][quote name='Apotheoun' post='1830477' date='Apr 10 2009, 01:35 AM']The personal opinions of two popes or two hundred popes carries no more weight -- morally or theologically -- than the personal opinion of any other man or group of men.[/quote]Did you even read my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830523' date='Apr 10 2009, 12:38 AM']Did you even read my post?[/quote] Yes, I read your post, and I disagreed with your conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' post='1830418' date='Apr 9 2009, 09:46 PM']. . . but the opinions of the Popes do carry some weight . . .[/quote] This is false. The opinions of two popes are no more valid than the opinions of two legislators or two housewives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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