Prove Jesus To A Jew

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828041' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:44 PM']So then all proofs for the existence of God fail?[/quote]
[i]That[/i] there is a God can be known – according to the Eastern Fathers – by looking at creation, but [i]who[/i] or [i]what[/i] God is cannot be known by created reason.

Ultimately, revelation is necessary in order to know [i]who[/i] God is (i.e., that He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but nothing can reveal [i]what[/i] God is, because the divine essence is and always will be utterly transcendent, and beyond the scope of created reality.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828041' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:44 PM']Why did then doctors of the Church even attempt such things? Theres no point in telling believers God exists, they are meant for those who are non-believers...[/quote]
Why the Scholastics undertook to use pagan philosophy to know that which is unknowable is not something that I can answer. Such a search will bear no fruit.

I discussed this issue in another thread some time ago: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81541"][u]God as Unknowable[/u][/url]

Edited April 8, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

It is a form of the Pelagian heresy to say that one comes to faith in the Triune God by the act of his own created intellect. Whereby through arguments devised by his own created reason he convinces himself that there is a God, and then believes in Him. Such a methodology is quite simply a form of idolatry.

Divine faith is a gift of uncreated grace, and not of created intellection.

True knowledge of God – to paraphrase St. Gregory of Nyssa – involves giving up all created intellectual activity, for it is only when one abandons all creatures and passes by all that is intelligible in creation that he can find his Beloved by faith. [cf., Jean Cardinal Danielou, editor, [u]From Glory to Glory: Texts from Gregory of Nyssa's Mystical Writings[/u], page 202]

Edited April 8, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1828124' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:26 PM']It is a form of the Pelagian heresy to say that one comes to faith in the Triune God by the act of his own created intellect. Whereby through arguments devised by his own created reason he convinces himself that there is a God, and then believes in Him. Such a methodology is quite simply a form of idolatry.

Divine faith is a gift of uncreated grace, and not of created intellection.

True knowledge of God – to paraphrase St. Gregory of Nyssa – involves giving up all created intellectual activity, for it is only when one abandons all creatures and passes by all that is intelligible in creation that he can find his Beloved by faith. [cf., Jean Cardinal Danielou, editor, [u]From Glory to Glory: Texts from Gregory of Nyssa's Mystical Writings[/u], page 202][/quote]

If I understand you correctly, one cannot prove faith. You said earlier that one can prove that there is a God, although not really know him in a belief way.

If this is true, then we can prove if Jesus was God. We can prove to the Jew that the man Jesus was indeed God in the same way we can prove to an atheist God does in fact exist.

As a side note, I understand your criticism of Western thought, but it is the thought of my rite\church and is widely used in the western rite\church.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1828116' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:21 PM']Ultimately, revelation is necessary in order to know [i]who[/i] God is (i.e., that He is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), but nothing can reveal [i]what[/i] God is, because the divine essence is and always will be utterly transcendent, and beyond the scope of created reality.[/quote]

Wasn't the divine essence that is and always will be beyond the scope of created reality contained in the created reality of the person of Jesus?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828231' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:38 PM']If I understand you correctly, one cannot prove faith. You said earlier that one can prove that there is a God, although not really know him in a belief way.[/quote]
If through reason, i.e., by reflecting upon the created order, you convince yourself that there is a God, any belief that would be founded upon such an appraisal would be human faith, and not divine faith, which by its very nature a gift of uncreated grace. Only the latter type of faith is salvific.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828231' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:38 PM']If this is true, then we can prove if Jesus was God. We can prove to the Jew that the man Jesus was indeed God in the same way we can prove to an atheist God does in fact exist.[/quote]
It is not possible to prove by reason that God is a Trinity of persons, or that Jesus Christ is the eternal and uncreated person of the Logos incarnate, such things are known only through the gift of grace by which we receive divine faith.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828231' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:38 PM']As a side note, I understand your criticism of Western thought, but it is the thought of my rite\church and is widely used in the western rite\church.[/quote]
It is the "thought" of your Church only since about the 11th or 12th century. Prior to that time East and West, although using different languages, shared a common tradition of faith on these issues.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828233' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:40 PM']Wasn't the divine essence that is and always will be beyond the scope of created reality contained in the created reality of the person of Jesus?[/quote]
Jesus is the incarnation of the divine person of the Logos, and in relation to the incarnation it is heretical to focus upon the common divine essence, because to do so leads to the heresy of Patripassianism and to the false notion that the Holy Spirit became incarnate. Such an idea confuses the persons of the Trinity with their common nature.

Thus, there is a real distinction (i.e., a [i]pragmatika diakrisis[/i]), without a real division (i.e., a [i]pragmatike diaresis[/i]), between person and essence in God, and to fail to grasp this revealed truth leads to both Triadological and Christological errors.

Edited April 8, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1828263' date='Apr 7 2009, 09:04 PM']Jesus is the incarnation of the divine person of the Logos, and in relation to the incarnation it is heretical to focus upon the common divine essence, because to do so leads to the heresy of Patripassianism and to the false notion that the Holy Spirit became incarnate. Such an idea confuses the persons of the Trinity with their common nature.

Thus, there is a real distinction (i.e., a [i]pragmatika diakrisis[/i]), without a real division (i.e., a [i]pragmatike diaresis[/i]), between person and essence in God, and to fail to grasp this revealed truth leads to both Triadological and Christological errors.[/quote]

What does this mean and how does it answer my question.

Its heretical to focus on the divine nature of Jesus?

[txdinghysailor]

Jesus was a redeemer. I don't care if you believe it or not. if you don't, there's a good chance you'll go to hell. not my problem.

[Nihil Obstat]

So let's say that someone was willing to maybe accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, but didn't understand why we also call Him one with God. What do we point to in order to take it that extra step?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828317' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:30 PM']What does this mean and how does it answer my question.[/quote]
What it means is this: you cannot speak about the divine essence in relation to the incarnation, but must refer that mystery solely to the person of the Logos.

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828317' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:30 PM']Its heretical to focus on the divine nature of Jesus?[/quote]
Yes, according to the 5th ecumenical council, it is heretical to "focus" upon the divine nature of Christ, which is only distinguished [i]tei theoriai monei[/i], but never in reality. The orthodox teaching is that Christians must focus upon the divine person of the Logos, who exists in two natures after the incarnation, without separation or blending.

To speak of the "divine nature" as incarnate is heretical, because the divine nature is common to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1828578' date='Apr 7 2009, 10:47 PM']So let's say that someone was willing to maybe accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, but didn't understand why we also call Him one with God. What do we point to in order to take it that extra step?[/quote]
You would point to divine revelation interpreted according to the mind of the Church, which is made manifest through Tradition.

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1828622' date='Apr 8 2009, 01:25 AM']What it means is this: you cannot speak about the divine essence in relation to the incarnation, but must refer that mystery solely to the person of the Logos.


Yes, according to the 5th ecumenical council, it is heretical to "focus" upon the divine nature of Christ, which is only distinguished [i]tei theoriai monei[/i], but never in reality. The orthodox teaching is that Christians must focus upon the divine person of the Logos, who exists in two natures after the incarnation, without separation or blending.

To speak of the "divine nature" as incarnate is heretical, because the divine nature is common to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

What do you mean by "focus"?

How are we to speak of the divinity of Jesus?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828815' date='Apr 8 2009, 09:35 AM']What do you mean by "focus"?[/quote]
Since man can know nothing about the divine essence it follows that it cannot be the focus of conceptualization.

While the persons, although existing ineffably, can be known to a limited degree, and the same is true with the divine energies that reveal God's presence in the world, for they can – albeit in a limited way – conceived, but the divine essence is utterly transcendent and unknowable, for it is adiastemic, while the created world is diastemic [cf. St. Gregory of Nyssa, [i]7th Homily on Ecclesiastes[/i], J.412].

[quote name='rkwright' post='1828815' date='Apr 8 2009, 09:35 AM']How are we to speak of the divinity of Jesus?[/quote]
[i]Divinity[/i] is not the divine essence; instead, divinity is an energy of the three persons, and like all common energies of the Trinity it manifests the unity of the persons within the divine nature, and yet the divine nature itself remains beyond our grasp. The essence of the Triune God is heterousios in relation to His creation, and as a consequence it cannot be known or conceived, for as St. Basil taught: "The energies are various, and the essence simple, but we say that we know our God from His energies, but do not undertake to approach near to His essence. His energies come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach" [St. Basil, [i]Letter 234[/i]].

Edited April 8, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rkwright]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1828825' date='Apr 8 2009, 10:47 AM']Since man can know nothing about the divine essence, it follows that it cannot be the focus of conceptualization. The persons, while existing ineffably, can be to a limited degree known, and the same is true with the divine energies that reveal God's presence in the world, but the divine essence is utterly transcendent and unknowable, for it is adiastemic, while the created world is diastemic.


[i]Divinity[/i] is not the divine essence; instead, divinity is an energy of the three persons, and like all common energies of the Trinity it manifests the unity of the persons within the divine nature, and yet the divine nature itself remains beyond our grasp. The essence of the Triune God is heterousios in relation to His creation, and as a consequence it cannot be known or conceived, for as St. Basil taught: "The energies are various, and the essence simple, but we say that we know our God from His energies, but do not undertake to approach near to His essence. His energies come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach" [St. Basil, [i]Letter 234[/i]].[/quote]

Sorry for the questions, and don't mean to hijack, but this is quiet interesting... if you will...

How does the western church approach this?

Does focus include meditation on? Can one meditate on the "divinity" (energy) of Jesus? Why is it wrong to meditate on the essence of God?

When we speak of Jesus's divinity we are speaking of the energy of the person?

How does this change our discussions, relationship, and general spirituality toward Jesus?

[pat22]

this debate is sliding of subject.