StColette Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1827883' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:48 PM']Faith is a divine gift of grace, and as such it is not founded upon so-called "rational proofs." Faith is a gift of uncreated energy, while the formulation of any argument is an act of created intellect, which by its very nature cannot transcend to the uncreated. So-called rational "proofs" are simply helps to the faith already lived and experienced by a Christian. To say anything else is to fall into various heresies, including – but not limited to – Pelagianism.[/quote] Whatever, Todd. You know that I was not meaning that only rational proofs should be taken into consideration. Give me more credit than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='StColette' post='1827925' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:16 PM']Whatever, Todd. You know that I was not meaning that only rational proofs should be taken into consideration. Give me more credit than that. [/quote] Although I quoted your post; my post itself was meant in a more general sense about "proofs" of faith, and was not directed solely or primarily at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 That works, especially the breaking bones one. how 'bout this one:why didn't Jesus defeat the Romans? if he was god he could have and everybody would undoubtedly believe him. he could still teach love your enemy ECT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1827931' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:20 PM']Although I quoted your post; my post itself was meant in a more general sense about "proofs" of faith, and was not directed solely or primarily at you. [/quote] ty Sorry if I was snappy. It's been a long day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='StColette' post='1827941' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:24 PM']ty Sorry if I was snappy. It's been a long day. [/quote] No worries. God grant you many joyful years. [img]http://www.geocities.com/apotheoun/orthodox.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 like my quote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namaste Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 (PLEASE NOTE THAT FOR THE MAJORITY OF THIS POST I AM SIMPLY PARAPHRASING OR COPYING DIRECTLY FROM THE SALVATION HISTORY WEBSITE. FOR FURTHER UNDERSTANDING PLEASE GO THERE) First of all, I’m not a Jew. Neither am I an expert. However, I was (literally, this is not a joke to make me sound all 1st century) pagan before I was Catholic. I had to be convinced the old fashioned way that Christ was the redeemer. To understand why Christ is the Messiah, we have to go way back to the Old Testament (henceforth, as you are a Jew) the Tanakh. When G-d interacts with Israel in the Tanakh, he does so in the form of covenants. We may understand, in the modern world, covenants to mean the same as contracts. But covenant (related to the word convene) means to come together. The readers of the Tanakh would have seen the difference between contract and covenant as the difference between prostitution (contract) and marriage (covenant, or between owning a slave (contract) and having a son (covenant). Through the progression of covenants, the Father has been trying to bring us gradually back to him since our expulsion from Eden. We understand this because the second difference between contracts and covenants is what is being exchanged. In a contract, you exchange a skill or piece of property or some other thing. In a covenant you say, “I am yours and you are mine.” And unlike in a contract, where you swear by your own word, in a covenant you swear by or with the help of G-d. You’ll find for instance, that ancient covenants take a certain form: There’s a kind of preamble that introduces the covenant, followed by a historical review of the relationship between the two parties; then a series of stipulations that spell out the obligations of the parties, along with a list of blessings and curses for upholding or breaking the covenant. Usually, the covenant is "ratified" in a solemn ceremony that involves a reading of the covenant document and eating and drinking. (If you want a very detailed analysis, try "The Meaning of Covenant" in the SalvationHistory.com Scripture Library.) A. The Number of the Biblical Covenants Following St. Irenaeus, we’re now ready to look at the number of covenants that God makes in the Bible and the special character of each. God makes six major covenants in the Bible, with: 1. Adam and Eve (Genesis 1:26-2:3) 2. Noah and his family (Genesis 9:8-17) 3. Abraham and his descendants (Genesis 12:1-3; 17:1-14; 22:16-18) 4. Moses and the Israelites (Exodus 19:5-6; 3:4-10; 6:7) 5. David and the Kingdom of Israel (2 Samuel 7:8-19) 6. Jesus and the Church (Matthew 26:28; 16:17-19) It’s important to know these covenants well - what God promises and what is required of those who enter into the covenants. In each successive covenant that G-d makes, he expands his people. Adam and Eve- a couple; Noah- a family; Abraham- a tribe; Moses- a nation or a people, but without a formal king; David- a kingdom; and with Christ, he opened up his covenant to the entire human race. This covenant with Christ brings all of creation into the kingdom of the Father. Christ tied his Passion to the Seder meal of the Jews and created himself the new sacrificial lamb. It is now by eating this Passover that we will be reminded of how G-d saved us from death. In order to be the messiah, Christ had to be Priest, Prophet and King. These are the progressive relationships that Israel had with God. Abraham was a priest, Moses was a prophet and David was a King. The messiah was to be all of these. When the wise men brought gold, frankincense and myrrh they were acknowledging exactly these three roles. Gold to represent him as King, Frankincense because he’s a priest, and Myrrh because he’s a prophet. Myrrh was also an embalming oil used at the time, so this foretold of his suffering and death. So, Christ is the long awaited Messiah, and there is more evidence to point to this if you don’t get the answers yourself by simply researching the covenants. Let me know. I understand that I peiced this together quicky and possibly poorly. Please forgive me but I'm mentally exhausted right now. If some of this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to let you know what I meant to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='pat22' post='1827934' date='Apr 7 2009, 05:20 PM']That works, especially the breaking bones one. how 'bout this one:why didn't Jesus defeat the Romans? if he was god he could have and everybody would undoubtedly believe him. he could still teach love your enemy ECT...[/quote] Oh my. Do you really not know anything about God? Jesus could have destroyed all of Rome in a blink of an eye. God isn't looking for us to come to him out of fear. He loves us and he wants us to come to us out of love. He wants us to love each other as he loves us. Jesus came to teach us the way and that way leads to peace and love, not destruction. He wants us to serve him because we want to, not because we are afraid not to. Although, if we choose not to, we may end up having something to be afraid of. Just not here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 Look, DEB, I'm playing devils advocate. "Oh my. Do you really not know anything about" reading the first post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='pat22' post='1827993' date='Apr 7 2009, 01:55 PM']Look, DEB, I'm playing devils advocate.[/quote] And to what point and purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 (edited) "and to what point and purpose? the Black Pearl is gone."-Jack sparrow. I like Pirates of the Caribbean too. Edited April 7, 2009 by pat22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Huh. Evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1827883' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:48 PM']Faith is a divine gift of grace, and as such it is not founded upon so-called "rational proofs." Faith is a gift of uncreated energy, while the formulation of any argument is an act of created intellect, which by its very nature cannot transcend to the uncreated. So-called rational "proofs" are simply helps to the faith already lived and experienced by a Christian. To say anything else is to fall into various heresies, including – but not limited to – Pelagianism.[/quote] So then all proofs for the existence of God fail? Why did then doctors of the Church even attempt such things? Theres no point in telling believers God exists, they are meant for those who are non-believers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 We are doing Jesus not the very existence of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 [quote name='pat22' post='1828102' date='Apr 7 2009, 07:10 PM']We are doing Jesus not the very existence of God.[/quote] Don't be so narrow. Apo is saying proofs of matters of faith are useless - including "Proving Jesus to a Jew". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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