Did We Leave Behind Too Many Of Our Jewish Roots?

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='pat22' post='1831127' date='Apr 10 2009, 05:26 PM']can we be a little more open-minded?[/quote]
you talkin to me, sparky?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1827748' date='Apr 7 2009, 08:08 PM']We are not to continue the Jewish holidays and rituals as the Jews had them because that is the Old Covenant. HOWEVER, Christ said he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.

I would recommend reading a good work of theology on the Old Testament. Then go to Mass and pay very careful attention: you will see ALL the Old Law in its fulfilled form.

The Eucharist as a meal is the fulfilled Passover feast.
The Eucharist as a Sacrifice is the fulfilled act of Sacrifice the Old Law demanded.
Look at the Vestments.
Smell the Incense.
Listen to the Old Testament reading.
Listen to the chanting.
Look at the Tabernacle.
Venerate the Ark of the Covenant (Holy Mary)
Look at Christ on the Crucifix.
See how the "Seat of Moses" is fulfilled by the Chair of Peter.

All of that (and more) is what Judaism was pointing toward.

So the Church has it right: it is not to carry on the Jewish religion unchanged. That would be to pretend Christ never came. Yet on the flip side, to fail to recognize Old Testament antecedents in nearly every facet of our faith is to miss out on one of its major dimensions.[/quote]
Don't know if you've been in a synagogue (I haven't since becoming Catholic, actually, and had only been in one once before then), but there are definite similarities, especially with the Tabernacle. They house the 10 Commandments there, while we have the Word made Flesh there. There's a good picture of the synagogue here [url="http://www.princesroad.org/"]at this link[/url].

[pat22]

[quote name='MIkolbe' post='1831486' date='Apr 11 2009, 12:14 AM']you talkin to me, sparky?[/quote]
no, I was talkin' more to cmotherofpirl. and who you callin' sparky?

[Aloysius]

the Church is the new Israel; if one considers the definition of "Jew" to be "part of Israel" then in a sense one could say we're the "new Jews" in that way... it's an odd verbal construction but there's something in there that rings some truth. God's covenants with Israel are fulfilled in the Church, everything He promised to Abraham and his descendants, to Jacob (Israel) and to his descendants, are promises fulfilled when He does them for us... for spiritually all Christians are the true descendants of Abraham, the true descendants of Jacob (Israel).

but it all depends on how "Jew" is defined.

there is probably some unknown special place for the Hebrew race who are the genetic descendants of Abraham and Jacob/Israel in the fulfillment of time at the end, but that is not fully known. what is known is that everything that scripture says about God's covenant with Israel may be applied to the Church, and the Hebrew people are offered the Church equally with the gentiles, for in Christ there is "neither Jew nor Greek..."

all that said, we are not to be culturally Jews, nor are we to hold to the proscriptions of the Old Covenant whatsoever because, as has been explained already, they were shadows, they pointed forward to the events of Christ. one does not point forward to something which has already happened, to do so would be a denial of the uniqueness of that event which already happened.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='pat22' post='1831702' date='Apr 11 2009, 11:38 AM']no, I was talkin' more to cmotherofpirl. and who you callin' sparky?[/quote]
I was simply stating the facts

[Ora et Labora]

well I know we aren't Jews! the topic of this tread is to discuss if the Catholic church strayed too far from what Jesus intended. the Jews and the Catholics have hardly any resemblance today.

[Aloysius]

the point is that they're not supposed to.

what many people forget is that it's not just Christianity that has come a long way from the Old Testament; Rabbinic Judaism has too. It has grown and developed and should not be looked at as if it was an accurate window into exactly what was done in Old Testament times. One can make an ethno-historical analogy since they have a similar (but much changed) culture to the Jews of the Old Testament, but one should not take their ceremonies as literal examples of what was done in the Old Testament.

judaizers are heretical. we are not permitted to continue the religious rituals of the Old Covenant in the light of the New Covenant. that's why the Council of Nicaea made sure no one was calculating Easter by any reference to the Jewish Passover. That's why the Council of Florence forbade all circumcision, and for that matter why the Council of Jerusalem with all 12 Apostles present decided that gentiles were not bound by circumcision or the laws of kosher but only by the covenant of Noah who was not himself a Jew.

[StColette]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1831139' date='Apr 10 2009, 07:52 PM']Just want to clarify. Being Jewish does not = denying Christ.

The problem with Jesus as far as the scribes were concerned was that He made it clear on repeated ocassions that His followers were to substitute His person for the Torah. "I am the Law," is not something they could stomach from anyone but God.[/quote]

The Jews, except those that accepted Christ as the Messiah, denied that Christ was the Messiah and refused to except this fact. Now, since Christ is the Messiah and because some Jews denied this truth they would be denying who Christ truly is and thus denying Christ.

The Jews that I have spoken with personally do not believe the Messiah has come, so they are denying that Christ was the Messiah.

[pat22]

sorry ora et labora was me. I accidentally logged in as my sister.

[pat22]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1835202' date='Apr 14 2009, 12:26 PM']the point is that they're not supposed to.

what many people forget is that it's not just Christianity that has come a long way from the Old Testament; Rabbinic Judaism has too. It has grown and developed and should not be looked at as if it was an accurate window into exactly what was done in Old Testament times. One can make an ethno-historical analogy since they have a similar (but much changed) culture to the Jews of the Old Testament, but one should not take their ceremonies as literal examples of what was done in the Old Testament.

judaizers are heretical. we are not permitted to continue the religious rituals of the Old Covenant in the light of the New Covenant. that's why the Council of Nicaea made sure no one was calculating Easter by any reference to the Jewish Passover. That's why the Council of Florence forbade all circumcision, and for that matter why the Council of Jerusalem with all 12 Apostles present decided that gentiles were not bound by circumcision or the laws of kosher but only by the covenant of Noah who was not himself a Jew.[/quote]
why can't we practice old traditions in light of the new covenant? Jesus did.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='pat22' post='1835396' date='Apr 14 2009, 05:43 PM']why can't we practice old traditions in light of the new covenant? Jesus did.[/quote]
He made St Peter head of his church and at the Last Supper He instituted NEW tradition, which replaced the old. Again, we are not jews.

[Apotheoun]

Jesus lived the ritual aspects of the Old Law in order to fulfill them. If you have been baptized into Christ you have lived all of those things in Him, and consequently you do not have to be circumcised physically, because you have been circumcised spiritually, etc.

The Church Fathers, who are normative in matters of theology, held that the judicial and ritual aspects of the Law have been fulfilled and transfigured in Christ into the sacramental structures of Christian worship. They would hold that it is heretical to celebrate the Old Testament feasts, because to do so fails to accept the work accomplished by Christ.

[pat22]

please quit saying we are not Jews, that is irrelevant.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='pat22' post='1835405' date='Apr 14 2009, 05:56 PM']please quit saying we are not Jews, that is irrelevant.[/quote]
No it is not since you started the thread by asking about jewish elements and made the statement about being new jews. We do not celebrate jewish rituals or festivals because we are christian. Our roots are jewish, but the tree that grew from there is in the life of the church found in Christ. If for educational purposes you go to a seder that is fine, but we cannot celebrate what we left behind.

[pat22]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1835429' date='Apr 14 2009, 05:10 PM']No it is not since you started the thread by asking about jewish elements and made the statement about being new jews. We do not celebrate jewish rituals or festivals because we are christian. Our roots are jewish, but the tree that grew from there is in the life of the church found in Christ. If for educational purposes you go to a seder that is fine, but we cannot celebrate what we left behind.[/quote]
you just flicked off this entire thread with that post. telling me we are not Jews IS irrelevant, do you think I'm stupid? if that's the best you got please don't post on my topic. Its just rude.