Did We Leave Behind Too Many Of Our Jewish Roots?

[pat22]

We are the "New Jews" but do you think we left behind too many Jewish holidays, traditions,ECT....?

[Aloysius]

no, I don't believe that myself. It was the Apostles themselves who put us on the trajectory that we went on... it was pretty much their analysis that non-Jews should not be subject to Jewish rituals and feasts at what might be colloquially considered as the "First Ecumenical Council" (though it's not counted as such): The Council of Jerusalem. (Acts of the Apostles, Chapter 15; Letter of St. Paul to the Galatians, Chapter 2)

We have carried on that tradition, continually condemning those who would "judaize" Christianity... "judaizers" are a type of heretic for that reason. The first Bishop to really condemn judaizing was the Apostle Paul, of course, but one good old fashioned condemnation of judaizers comes from the Council of Florence:
[quote]It [The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.[/quote]

(the general principal here is good, though I believe it was Pope Pius XII who once indicated that circumcision can be done if it is done purely for medical reasons, even though one might've read this thinking medical reasons qualified as "whether or not they place their hope in it", it clearly was referring to people who practiced it religiously even if they didn't consider it something to place their hope in)

judaizing is bad. now, to what degree should we have things like Catholic sedar meals to learn more about the context into which Christ brought the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper is a certainly an open and debatable question... one must accept as a general principal that Christianity is not meant to be judaized... we are the continuation of the Old Testament religion as it became something universal rather than something particular to one race... the proscriptions of the Old Testament Judaism pointed forward to Christ and while understanding them helps us to understand how God prepared the human race in the people of the Jews for the coming of His Son who would redeem all of mankind, practicing those ceremonies now would be contradictory to the new era which Christ ushered in.

also, those who are of a Hebrew origin who are within the Catholic Church would have a bit more leeway to view these things as their cultural heritage, so long as they did not practice them as their religion (ie no Catholic can treat Saturday as the sabbath, regularly attend synagogue, et cetera; but a Hebrew Catholic might practice kosher the same way an Indian Catholic might never eat a cow)

back to the Council of Jerusalem, however, one thing they did say at that council was that Gentiles were not bound fully by the Mosaic covenant and kosher laws as such, but that Gentiles were bound by the covenant of Noah (since Noah was not a Jew, theoretically, because Abraham is the father of the Jewish race): meaning no eating blood in meat. Apotheoun has indicated that Eastern Churches consider this still binding (though I'm not sure how that works in Eastern Europe, famous for their blood pudding), but the Roman Church does not enforce this in any way. this MAY be (and I say this reluctantly as one who enjoys a good bloody steak, medium rare) an Old Testament proscription that we have left behind too much.

[pat22]

Ive thought about that but we Are supposed to be Jews were did we take on the name catholic and pick up all the new traditions we practice today?

[StColette]

[quote name='pat22' post='1827722' date='Apr 7 2009, 02:30 PM']Ive thought about that but we Are supposed to be Jews were did we take on the name catholic and pick up all the new traditions we practice today?[/quote]

Who says we are supposed to be Jews?

[pat22]

Jesus WAS a Jew and came to redeem us, besides I'm just spit balling here.

Edited April 7, 2009 by pat22

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='pat22' post='1827651' date='Apr 7 2009, 10:55 AM']We are the "New Jews" but do you think we left behind too many Jewish holidays, traditions,ECT....?[/quote]

We are not to continue the Jewish holidays and rituals as the Jews had them because that is the Old Covenant. HOWEVER, Christ said he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.

I would recommend reading a good work of theology on the Old Testament. Then go to Mass and pay very careful attention: you will see ALL the Old Law in its fulfilled form.

The Eucharist as a meal is the fulfilled Passover feast.
The Eucharist as a Sacrifice is the fulfilled act of Sacrifice the Old Law demanded.
Look at the Vestments.
Smell the Incense.
Listen to the Old Testament reading.
Listen to the chanting.
Look at the Tabernacle.
Venerate the Ark of the Covenant (Holy Mary)
Look at Christ on the Crucifix.
See how the "Seat of Moses" is fulfilled by the Chair of Peter.

All of that (and more) is what Judaism was pointing toward.

So the Church has it right: it is not to carry on the Jewish religion unchanged. That would be to pretend Christ never came. Yet on the flip side, to fail to recognize Old Testament antecedents in nearly every facet of our faith is to miss out on one of its major dimensions.

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='StColette' post='1827724' date='Apr 7 2009, 12:33 PM']Who says we are supposed to be Jews?[/quote]

Scripture.

Gal 3.7

[StColette]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1827749' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:09 PM']Scripture.

Gal 3.7[/quote]

Incorrect Biblical interpretation. You have taken a verse from Scripture completely out of context. St. Paul is not speaking of the Jews, he is speaking of believers in the faith, not to a specific race. If you go on to read the rest of the chapter St. Paul makes this quite clear when he says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

This may help clarify a little more what St. Paul was saying in the verse you quoted.

As it is written: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. See Romans iv. 3. They only who imitate the faith of Abraham shall be blessed with him, and are his spiritual children, whether Jews or Gentiles, whom God promised to bless by the seed of Abraham; i.e. by Christ, who descended from Abraham. (Witham) --- The apostle thus argues with the Galatians; Abraham, who was never under the law, still received the grace of justification in reward of his faith, even before he had received circumcision. Now, if a person can be justified without the law, the law can be no ways necessary to salvation. (Calmet)

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We are not Jews, they are our elder brothers, but we are Christians because we follow Christ and have been baptized as such. Jews deny that the Messiah has come, so you can call yourself a Jew if you want but you would be in the same breath deny Christ.

[Aloysius]

we can be said to be "spiritually semites", and that the Catholic Church is the true continuation of the Old Covenant and therefore it is the true "Israel"... if one considers the term "Judaism" to refer to the Old Covenant religion (which can be a bit of an anachronistic application of that term), the the Church is the new Judaism, the continuation of it; and Rabinic Judaism is not the true continuation of it; though they practice the same things that were once practiced in the Old Testament, they do so out of the context in which they were meant, because that context is meant to be pre-Christ and pointing to Christ, in the Christian interpretation.

[Apotheoun]

The rituals and festivals of the Old Testament were only shadows of the realities contained in the New Testament; as a consequence the significance of those old rituals and festivals has been definitively fulfilled by the keeping of the Church's liturgical cycle.

[pat22]

you say Jesus came to fulfill the old testament not to abolish it, but obviously it is abolished. you've simply renamed the same meaning.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='pat22' post='1827916' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:09 PM']you say Jesus came to fulfill the old testament not to abolish it, but obviously it is abolished. you've simply renamed the same meaning.[/quote]
He did fulfill the Old Testament, and so the rituals of sacrifice (and the Seder) find their fulfillment in the Eucharistic liturgy. To go back to the Old Testament sacrifices (or to celebrate the Seder) is to return to the shadows and types which have been fulfilled in the Church's liturgy.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='pat22' post='1827916' date='Apr 7 2009, 03:09 PM']you say Jesus came to fulfill the old testament not to abolish it, but obviously it is abolished. you've simply renamed the same meaning.[/quote]
Pope St. Leo, in his Paschal homilies, states quite clearly that Christians must not celebrate the Old Testament rituals because they are merely shadows of the reality that is found only in the Church's worship.

[pat22]

keep in mind that if I'm a Jew I won't care what the pope states.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='pat22' post='1828023' date='Apr 7 2009, 04:15 PM']keep in mind that if I'm a Jew I won't care what the pope states.[/quote]
Well, that may be the case, but most Catholics don't really care what a Jew thinks either about his attachments to rituals devoid of grace. The Church Fathers condemned anything that involved returning to the practices (i.e., the shadows) of the Old Testament dispensation, because that dispensation has been definitively fulfilled in the economy of the New Testament.

Edited April 7, 2009 by Apotheoun