Franciscan University Thread

[littlesister]

Good grief, people. As another who spent post-grad sabbatical time at FUS, must of it in theology - and appreciated just about every minute of it - it escapes me for what good reason this thread was started in the first place. Anyone?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='littlesister' post='1823834' date='Apr 3 2009, 06:18 PM']Good grief, people. As another who spent post-grad sabbatical time at FUS, must of it in theology - and appreciated just about every minute of it - it escapes me for what good reason this thread was started in the first place. Anyone?[/quote]

I have absolutely no connection to FUS. Never been there, never met in person anyone who has either good or bad to say about it. So, when someone wants to publicly condemn the institution, others need of have the opportunity to set the record straight. People researching the school might plug it into Google, and pull up this guy's posts. I have been pleased to read each side of the argument.

Now if someone disses OSU's forestry department, I'll be all over them.

[jksoren]

Well, I don't think that there is going to be arguing with anyone here. My anecdotal evidence simply does not compare to your anecdotal evidence and it seems that my intelligence and ability to do theology have been questioned. And why not? After all, I did not know where in the conciliar documents of Trent it says that the laity are to be responsible for teaching catechetics.

However, I wonder. Can any of you show me that you have what it takes to really answer the burning questions that lay within the minds of non-believers (or your thoughtful students)? Honestly, did you REALLY learn what you needed at Franciscan to handle challenges from educated interlocutors? Isn't it possible that in your arrogance concerning your own ability to teach the faith to anyone that you are libel to do more harm then good? If you all think that Franciscan taught you ALL that you need to know, and you were so rigorous as to even read beyond the material with all the free-time that you had while taking "graduate" classes, then surely you would easily be able to answer the following objections, intelligently. Can you do it?

Pretend that I am not a believer, I am an earnest truth seeker coming to you for guidance:

“Daniel Dennett wrote that Christians justify their belief in an invisible omnipotent God in a very inconsistent manner. He pointed out that when bad things happen, like hurricanes, that we tend NOT to attribute that event to God's providence because if we did we would have to admit that God was the cause of evil in the world. However, he says, then we do a "ridiculous about-face” and have the audacity to claim that when good things happen to us, like winning a prize, that such an event is directly attributable to God! He argues that this is just one example of how Christians fail to be consistent or rational when it comes to what we profess to believe in. I want to know the truth. Are we just conveniently dreaming up a God to fit our desires!? I want to believe, but if we are “inventing” God based on desire, how can I do so?

Essentially my problem is this, how do I reconcile these two views (to say that God doesn’t do evil and yet to also say that God is still somehow in control of his creation?) so that I can maintain my belief in God's present and loving providence? Am I simply arbitrarily ascribing "divinity" to those things that I subjectively find good? Does God cause hurricanes that kill thousands of people? If he does, why? And how is this compatible with my belief in a Christian God of life and love? Please help!”

[Lilllabettt]

I've met people who graduated from Franciscan. Angry, no. Frustrated, yes.

I have to disagree with my sister (Maggie.) I did a lot of stupid things when I was 18, but no way is a University going to tell prospective students, on fire for God or not, "this is unwise" with 40 grand on the line. Nor should they be expected to.

Everyone has priorities about what they want from college. If what you want is to graduate and be able to support a family, then maybe FUS theology is not for you. But they have a really good nursing program, right? Nursing = $$$. What people here seem to be complaining about is not being able to make money from theology degrees. Did you really think you were going to rake it in with a theology degree from anywhere?

If I wanted to get a Phd, I would look up how many people in the programs I'm considering get Phds and where they went. That's basic research that should be done before you choose a graduate program. If it's a crummy program, and not going to get you where you need to go, and you knew it, why did you sign up? If you didn't know, why didn't you know?

[Lil Red]

[quote name='littlesister' post='1823834' date='Apr 3 2009, 05:18 PM']Good grief, people. As another who spent post-grad sabbatical time at FUS, must of it in theology - and appreciated just about every minute of it - it escapes me for what good reason this thread was started in the first place. Anyone?[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
this thread was split off from another thread.

and again, anyone expecting to make money working for the Church is a little off their rocker.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1824152' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:30 AM']+J.M.J.+
this thread was split off from another thread.

and again, anyone expecting to make money working for the Church is a little off their rocker. [/quote]

If you know where to look you can find the top salaries that professors are paid at Franciscan, and for a university professor, it is just pathetic - not even a tenth of other comparable schools. Most of the professors there take a serious hit moving from other schools. People go to Franciscan because they love their Catholic faith.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1824163' date='Apr 3 2009, 09:39 PM']If you know where to look you can find the top salaries that professors are paid at Franciscan, and for a university professor, it is just pathetic - not even a tenth of other comparable schools. Most of the professors there take a serious hit moving from other schools. People go to Franciscan because they love their Catholic faith.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
which is exactly my point. people work for the Church because they love their faith, not because they are in it for the money.

[jksoren]

I am jksoren's wife and have been following this discussion. I just have a few things to say, and I hope I can do so graciously.

First, of course, a defense is in order.
1. He did not go to Thomas Aquinas College. He went to one of the nation's top 25 universities. I wonder where many of the posters here went to school for their BAs? It seems that if you have experienced a different (and better) university, you would have a more critical eye towards the obvious deficiencies of FUS.
2. After school, he worked in business and made $60,000 a year starting off. We value living simply and never left his job for FUS with the idea of making more money in theology. We knew we were making a sacrifice; BUT, we also knew he needed to provide for a family and a professor's income was the security we needed to make the career change with confidence.
3. To address the cliches "making the most of the degree" and "if you put more in, you get more out" is just painfully ironic. You wouldn't believe me anyway.
4. Bitterness is not the word I would use to characterize the way we both feel about our disappointment with the MA program. Heartbroken would fit a lot better.

A few points to consider further:
1. About us and our ignorance: That's the shame of ignorance. We ignored red flags. This is our fault. We are now fixing our mistake, but we will always consider FUS a mistake for good reason.
2. A master's degree SHOULD provide adequate preparation for further study in graduate school. After all, it should be at the graduate level ALREADY. Doctoral students at most universities study alongside terminal MA students. If FUS is not placing people who desire to apply to PhDs in good programs, then it is a fault of FUS. It is our fault for not looking into this, but that doesn't take away from the irrefutable deficiencies of FUS's MA program. Even if one were to take extra classes etc, having studied at FUS still presents an obstacle to future study because the program is ranked so low, if at all. To get into top PhD programs almost always requires that you come from a solid MA program, you know, one the admissions committee has heard of. "Steuben-- what?"
3. The school charges $1,800 a class [in Steubenville, OH... a town so economically depressed that property values were actually falling long before the housing bubble burst!]. Where is the money going? I do not see it serving the student body in any capacity. The gym is worse than a high school gym (you have to see it to believe it, and even then you can't believe it). They have no track (even a middle school has a track). No swimming pool. No on-campus eateries besides a high school cafeteria and cellophane wrapped food. The library can hardly compete with a city library and it is a university. No graduate housing to speak of. No graduate funding at all. Their graduate degree in theology just reads "Master of Arts"!! (I have heard this complaint many times, even the degree is embarrassing and not worthy to hang in a bathroom, although we might just hang it there.) I guess we should be happy that at least some dollars go to salt the sidewalks. I wonder how the administration let even those slip through their pocketbooks.

Ultimately, we have been scammed. And what do scammed people do? They write it all over the internet so any reasoning person out there with critical thinking skills will at least consider the *possibility* that their experience could have some truth value to it. Had anyone spoken to us explicitly about this, we would have listened.
But no one could speak the truth to us. Most people in the program fall into these categories: not knowing what they are doing before, during, or after their degree; looking for a spouse; just had a conversion and impulsively applied to FUS; looking for a safe place where people will accept them (there seems to be quite a population of mentally unstable people here and this is my best guess at why they are attracted to FUS); looking for an orthodox MA program that will give them the education they need to apply to the following schools we have heard over and over again here: University of Dallas. Marquette University. Catholic University of America. Ave Maria University. (This line-up will sound all too familiar to any current FUS MA student applying for PhDs). We too originally fell into this myopia. Thankfully, at the last minute, we escaped a far worse mistake.

I say this:

If you don't care to come for any sort of career objective, but just want "to have a good experience": I would spend the time and money traveling the world instead.

If you want to come to grow in your faith: save $40,000 and two years of your life and come for a summer conference. Or find a faithful group where you live. Or read the catechism.

If you want to go on for a PhD without funding at Catholic University of America, come here and get your MA. And then go there--they'll happily pocket the money of geniuses too apparently.

Edited April 4, 2009 by jksoren

[Archaeology cat]

Hey Brother Adam, where are you looking for your PhD? It definitely isn't unusual to need a few extra classes as prep for the PhD, especially here, since the PhD in England is usually 100% research. I mean, you can take the courses you need, of course, but there isn't a class requirement usually (in my limited experience in a different field entirely).

[dairygirl4u2c]

it sounds like people should be more sympathetic to the poster here.
even if it's not an all bad place, there are downfalls that she mentions. eg, deception advertising (even if not untrue) etc.
to put the burden on figuring out all this sort of thing on the student, is unrealistic, and misplaced. if it wasn't so hard to regulate, i'd probably say schools should be regulated. this experience they're talking about isn't a solitary experience, with this student, or this school, or other schools.
'you made the bed, now lay in it' is unfair, if everything said here is true, if that's the final response.
'if they are lying, sue em etc, if ya can't then it's all in your head' etc is unrealistic, cause just because something can't add up to a successful suit doesn't mean there's not a problem there.
'stick it em' isn't always the most helpful answer. it does need to be said, in some sense, but truth is always more than this either or mentality.
more sympathy, by far, is needed here, regardless of the situtation.


[quote name='CatherineM' post='1823964' date='Apr 3 2009, 09:04 PM']I have absolutely no connection to FUS. Never been there, never met in person anyone who has either good or bad to say about it. So, when someone wants to publicly condemn the institution, others need of have the opportunity to set the record straight. People researching the school might plug it into Google, and pull up this guy's posts. I have been pleased to read each side of the argument.

Now if someone disses OSU's forestry department, I'll be all over them.[/quote]

i know dr. williams, he's a bright man

Edited April 4, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

'have a good experience'
'you get what you put into it'
etc etc
all rationalizations, excuses, and by far, cliches.
there's some truth to them, but, there's truth to a lot of things.
at any rate, the poster needs more sympathey and has a lot of compelling 'other side of the coin' responses

[dairygirl4u2c]

i obviously have no vested interest any of this, and can't speak much.
just wanted to give some sympathy to someone i saw as getting lambasted.
course, it was from people who went to the school, and were defensive, but still.

Edited April 4, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1824356' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:45 PM']i obviously have no vested interest any of this, and can't speak much.
just wanted to give some sympathy to someone i saw as getting lambasted.
course, it was from people who went to the school, and were defensive, but still.[/quote]

Why offer sympathy for someone who offers no rational evidence for anything they are saying? Many of us who go to Steubenville have offered concrete examples in rebuttal to this posters defamation. It is actually a very Protestant attitude, which we know is the opposite of reasonable - "If you aren't with my opinion then you are brainwashed". It's an un-defeatable circular attitude.

Steubenville has its share of problems, but no where near what this person makes it out to be.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1824296' date='Apr 4 2009, 07:40 AM']Hey Brother Adam, where are you looking for your PhD? It definitely isn't unusual to need a few extra classes as prep for the PhD, especially here, since the PhD in England is usually 100% research. I mean, you can take the courses you need, of course, but there isn't a class requirement usually (in my limited experience in a different field entirely).[/quote]

Yes, if I were to go to England it would be a research degree at Maryvalle. I'm also looking at Fordham in the US.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the below is just a trend i see generally..
can't say it applies to steubenville (though it sounds like much of it might

examples of fraud, that i've seen before at other schools/...
-"make 60k per year starting out average', (when in fact, that's only the top earners that they take statistics for.
-'high employment rate' (when it's only those wh they poll, or wrk at mcdonald's
-'go to X univeristy PhD, Y, Z, like our past students' (when in fact these are very rare.
-'top ranked! by princeton review' (when it's some obscure way, like a regional thing or X object)(think you're good cause it's princeton review
-check out our top notch facilities (well all the stuff they wre saying above
-'check out our career services office'(there's no way you can lose) (when they're just a place to make it look good, and might find a job or two for some students
ironic, this sounds sorta like the poster of this thread

and, there's not much info on these things often.
'how many went to Y? how many went to Z?'. the info's just not there. 'oh you mean i had to pry into how exactly they were deceving me with the stats about ranking, even though there's not a lot of good info out there' (lies, damned lies, and statistics) 'oh i didn't know their income wasn't so high, where the real info. guess there is none, or jobs'
a lot of times... the only way i know of steering clear of something, not because i lack the research skills, but because there's not much info, is by those who are disenfranchised. eg, think of amazon reviews, etc. most of those products you'd never know what to think without em, it's impossile to figure out.
'stick it to em' can be an impossble burden. in those times, the people who have the info should be more upfrint, hence my ''legislate this thing, if possible'
(how many would say... 'i don't believe what you're telling me. give me the research methods you've used to say X goes to Y PhD, or salary, or jobs etc. it's unrealistic to expect that, and a lot of times, they would probably say they don't have all the stats on XY placement etc info, or would give you a run around, if it's like most sham places)

even if ya put more blame on the student, i'd say the school making those claims doesn't sound much better than a used car salesman, in that sleasy sense.
course, there's a fine line between that and just reasonable puffery that goes with making a sale, but.

Edited April 4, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c