Franciscan University Thread

[jksoren]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1823634' date='Apr 3 2009, 03:42 PM']Just out of curiosity, which Hahn son is that?[/quote]

Michael Hahn. He and his wife also just had their first baby. He just started the program this fall. I don't know him personally but I have a close friend who is close to the Hahns...plus Dr. Hahn tells us about his kids enough of the time that I would have known this anyway.

[Apotheoun]

Well, you made the choice to go there, so you will have to live with that choice.

[jksoren]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823643' date='Apr 3 2009, 03:54 PM']Goodness, I sense some anger here.[/quote]

No not really, more of a heaping helping of reality if you ask me.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jksoren' post='1823658' date='Apr 3 2009, 02:20 PM']No not really, more of a heaping helping of reality if you ask me.[/quote]
You sound extremely bitter. Get over it and move on.

Edited April 3, 2009 by Apotheoun

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823657' date='Apr 3 2009, 04:19 PM']Well, you made the choice to go there, so you will have to live with that choice.[/quote]



Like I said before, I find it odd that your first posts here on Phatmass are about how horrible Franciscan is and I find it odd that this thread was buried on Phatmass with the last post being back on March 24th.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='StColette' post='1823647' date='Apr 3 2009, 04:59 PM']just a little lol

I find a bit of it offensive, especially since I went there and experienced quite the opposite, so I must be blind .
:shrug:[/quote]

What I really want to know is, are people getting into doctoral programs out of Franciscan? Or is like jksoren says with hardly anybody getting in. That to me is the bottom line on whether a program is worthwhile or not. Is it true there is no Greek requirement? Did you ever encounter any of the stuff he talks about with the friars being a little wishy-washy? He (she?) does sound pretty bitter but if I dropped that much $$$ with those results I might be peeved too! I really want to find out because I have talked to people with such different experiences... some people really had a great time, a lot of debt but they learned a lot and grew in their faith, others also had a good time but didn't find it as intellectually engaging/enriching, and then they wound up as janitors. Not that there is anything wrong with being a janitor but it is not what they paid $50,000 in student loans for.

[Apotheoun]

I think that someone is experiencing buyer's remorse.

[Apotheoun]

As I said in the other thread: "For me as an Eastern Christian all Western theology programs are deficient, but that is life. You make the best of what you can get, and hopefully grow in the process."

In an ideal world a person would only get what he really wants and needs. Everything would be tailored to his particular circumstances, but real life is not like that.

[StColette]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1823662' date='Apr 3 2009, 04:22 PM']What I really want to know is, are people getting into doctoral programs out of Franciscan? Or is like jksoren says with hardly anybody getting in. That to me is the bottom line on whether a program is worthwhile or not. Is it true there is no Greek requirement? Did you ever encounter any of the stuff he talks about with the friars being a little wishy-washy? He (she?) does sound pretty bitter but if I dropped that much $$$ with those results I might be peeved too! I really want to find out because I have talked to people with such different experiences... some people really had a great time, a lot of debt but they learned a lot and grew in their faith, others also had a good time but didn't find it as intellectually engaging/enriching, and then they wound up as janitors. Not that there is anything wrong with being a janitor but it is not what they paid $50,000 in student loans for.[/quote]


I never experienced any of what he is speaking of. And no there is no Greek or Hebrew requirement, but that doesn't mean that you should not take it. If your goal is to teach in a College/University setting then you should be responsible enough to prepare yourself for such a setting. I took four years of French, 1 because I love the language and 2 because a great deal of Church writings are in French. I also took Hebrew while I attended Franciscan and have a pretty good working knowledge of it. Though I should pick up studying it again because I'm becoming a bit rusty, which can happen with any language.

As a University student you should be able to plan out your course of action based on what your career goal is. If your career goal is being a youth minister or high school Theology teacher with an MA or BA then you aren't likely to need Greek or Hebrew. Now, if your goal is to become a Professor then common sense tells you to take Greek, Hebrew, or both. Keep in mind too that by your Senior year your schedule is completely cleared of most if not all required credits. You can either use this time to slack off or bulk up on more Theology classes. By my the second semester of my Junior year I had completed all my required credits and only had electives left and my thesis, of course. I choose to take as many Theology classes as possible. I believe this served me well because I had a larger variety of subject matter than a lot of Theology majors. So, honestly, it comes down to what your plans are. The school, or any school for that matter, isn't going to take you by the hand and tell you "Okay, Jennie, you need to take this class, this class, and this class if you want to be a professor." No, it is your responsibility to be adult enough to choose for yourself. You can go ask your professors or counselor their opinion, but come on your a big kid now and are quite capable of thinking.

I knew going to Franciscan what I wanted my career path to be so I picked classes accordingly. I specialized heavily in Biblical Studies and languages, and I did this without a professor or counselor telling me to do so. I graduated with around 20,000 in loans. Not bad for coming out of Franciscan and far less than what my previous degree plans would have cost me, Vet. Medicine. I loved my time there and grew so much more in love with God while there. I'm from the Bible belt area and rarely found a practicing Catholic my age. So to be around that many young Catholics was great for me. I also worked full time (40hrs a week) and did 18 credit hours a week. I also did a lot of reading on my own to help supplement classes that I was not able to take but would have liked to.

As for the Friars, I took classes with two Friars and a Dominican Priest who taught at Franciscan. All were very good men and I didn't find a problem with any of their Theology, except one really preferred the NO over the Trid. Mass, but that's not really much of a complaint.

To be honest, I'm not sure about the Doctorate part. I know of one friend who has his BA and MA from Franciscan Theology and Philosophy, if I'm correct, and he is currently working on his PhD. I knew of very few that wanted to go as far as getting their PhDs. So I can't really give an opinion on that. I can say though that the faculty of FUS has been wonderful to both my husband and I. We keep in regular contact with some of our professors and they are always willing to give advice on steps we should take to improve our ministries, etc.

All I can say is you get out what you put in. If you put forth the effort you can be successful, but if you don't then well you get the point.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jksoren' post='1823654' date='Apr 3 2009, 04:16 PM']1) Franciscan is NOT a nationally ranked school. The US News and World Report is indeed a good thing to consider, but being "ranked in your region" doesn't mean much. Especially when you consider how BAD the region Franciscan "ranks" in actually is. The truth is, telling people on their website that the school is "ranked high" is a lie. It is not. It is not a first tier school. I have no idea where it actually falls in the rankings but even in its own "region" it is nowhere near the top. The school also lied recently on their website, saying that Franciscan was a "top ten school!" Top ten academically? Not quite...it was because some website ranked them among the "most conservative colleges", which again means nothing. The website's manner of portraying these "facts" however is HIGHLY misleading. You after all believed that it was a high ranked school (from reading the website no doubt)...but it isn't.[/quote]

Please don't consider me so ignorant. I said it was top ranked because being in the top tier even regionally is an accomplishment, especially for such a small school in such a horrible little place. I'm not some fool who believes everything he reads. I attended FUS and was pleased with my education. I've done a lot of good with it. Heck, just last week, the deacon at Mass asked us (my wife and I, both FUS alumni) if his homily was theologically correct. Now, as you said, it's possible to skate through the program, but you seem to be putting an awful lot of blame on the school.

[quote]2) Schonborn is a great cardinal and many great clergy men have gotten behind the school...but honestly how much do they really know about Franciscan? How much time have they really spent here? I once truly believed in Franciscan too! I would have defended it even! But that was, of course, before I was actually a student here.[/quote]

Aside from the yearly meetings the FUS catechetics faculty has with the good cardinal, who advises them on the directions they should take, you mean? Or perhaps the summers spent in Gaming attending theology conferences under Schonborn don't count...

[quote]3) You misunderstand me about JCC. I know that they wouldn't hire me. Really all I want to say is that colleges/universities (JCC aside) do not hire MA students/graduates. Franciscan does though.[/quote]

So? Go work for Franciscan. If you want to complain about nobody hiring an MA grad, there's your chance! Be the change you wish to see.

[quote]4) For students coming to the MA program that have no prior background in theology, it costs about $40,000. I knew full well that I was going to pay a lot and I was willing to do it, because, after all it was Franciscan and I was on a mission. Well, I'm still on a mission....but I also could have should have gone to a better school for a fraction of the price. This school is a scam.[/quote]

Should have gotten a distance masters. Much cheaper.

[quote]5) I'm sorry to say this, but I personally never learned anything from a catechist. In my experience, they were never able to help me with any of my difficult philosophical objections to the faith when I was first looking to the Church. Most, I realized, ultimately relied upon some kind of fideism. I'm not saying that this is you! Just that where I was when I was searching that CCD people were more a barrier than a help. I don't know what you mean by "educated" people. And I don't know why anyone would HAVE to go to a catechist to answer their questions. In my experience a good book or apologetic website was always more effective if I had burning questions.[/quote]

A good book can't interact with you, and rarely does an apologetic website go out of its way to research your questions. Having resources (no less, having living, breathing people teaching Christ in the name of Christ - see Catechesi Tradendae) is very important. Most of the catechists you encountered (obviously, I could be wrong here) were likely not well-catechized themselves. That's a shame and it's a reality in our culture, but that doesn't mean that having theologically intelligent catechists is unnecessary. We're trying to change the situation and infuse genuine catechesis into the world around us. You seem to be thinking that the Church shouldn't provide that, that we shouldn't go out of our way to reach out to people, we should just let them come to us (or worse, a lifeless website) for information. That is against the mission of the Church. Theology at FUS may not be as academically rigorous as many colleges, but it doesn't have to be. Most of the people studying there are happy with their studies and closer to God because of it, and those that go out into the workforce preaching the Gospel are much more skilled, albeit not theological geniuses, than the lay, non-educated teachers currently in the average parish, who stick around and teach for only a year. The job of theology at FUS is not to produce future Schonborns, but to produce leaven for the world. You may not praise FUS, but the work of FUS praises God, and that is something about which no one can complain.

[quote]6) My children (I have one daughter) will never take CCD class at our parish. They will "mingle" with plenty of children, but I think that their religious education is our responsibility. Vatican II actually says as much, we are the primary educators of our children in this matter and it is our God given duty to fulfill it.[/quote]

Primary does not mean only. The primary catechist in your diocese is the bishop. The bishop has set up a religious education program in the diocese. I'm glad that you would rather it be a supplement, but it is exclusivist to pretend that catechesis should not take place outside of the home or in the context of the parish.

[quote]7) The grace of God reached me in SPITE of my CCD teachers, not because of it. I do work to evangelize though and I don't belong to a country club.[/quote]

Then perhaps you can see why God is moving more people who will never amount to more than the saintly work of religious education to get theology degrees. Not everyone is called to be a theologian, but how could it hurt to have more CCD teachers with that background? Your very experience shows how necessary it is.

[quote]8) The council of Trent says that? Where? I know that Vatican II specifically calls the laity to do formal catechetical work, but I am pretty sure that Trent does not consider this, not in the sense that you are thinking anyway. You have to show me where you read that. I have a decent grasp of Church history and the development of doctrine...what's "catechetical history" again?[/quote]

Catechetical history is the development of catechesis. I have my source at home. I'll cite it Monday (no internet at home). It is the forward of Msgr. Eugene Kevane's Teaching the Catholic Faith Today (the forward being catechetical history). The Council of Trent was when the Church first began speaking specifically about lay religious educators.

BTW, Thomas Aquinas College, which I believe is your alma mater (if your Facebook account is to be believed), has several professors who don't have doctorates. Interesting. Didn't you say it was a very good school?

[Apotheoun]

TAC is a nice school, I visited there during the mid 1990s, but after my visit I decided to go to SFSU instead.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823705' date='Apr 3 2009, 05:04 PM']TAC is a nice school, I visited there during the mid 1990s, but after my visit I decided to go to SFSU instead.[/quote]
I know it's a great school. I don't deny it. I'm just pointing out that you can get a good job at a good college with only an MA, especially if you're seeking a Ph.D. or STD (as most MA profs at FUS are).

[Maggyie]

You're right that it's the student's responsibility to be informed about what classes they need to take etc... especially at the Master's level. On the other hand I can see where undergrads might need a little more hand-holding. But that's what faculty advisers are for. And you're also right that really if you're going to seriously study theology you shouldn't need a language requirement spelled out for you, it should be taken for granted.

I [i]have [/i]heard some bad stuff about some of the friars/profs from other alumni, which shocked me and initially I discounted it, but I have heard it confirmed a couple times, not any entire departments in the gutter but one or two flakes. Personally I think orthodoxy in a college setting is over-rated except in terms of fellowship and extracurriculars.

[quote name='StColette' post='1823694' date='Apr 3 2009, 05:52 PM']I never experienced any of what he is speaking of. And no there is no Greek or Hebrew requirement, but that doesn't mean that you should not take it. If your goal is to teach in a College/University setting then you should be responsible enough to prepare yourself for such a setting. I took four years of French, 1 because I love the language and 2 because a great deal of Church writings are in French. I also took Hebrew while I attended Franciscan and have a pretty good working knowledge of it. Though I should pick up studying it again because I'm becoming a bit rusty, which can happen with any language.

As a University student you should be able to plan out your course of action based on what your career goal is. If your career goal is being a youth minister or high school Theology teacher with an MA or BA then you aren't likely to need Greek or Hebrew. Now, if your goal is to become a Professor then common sense tells you to take Greek, Hebrew, or both. Keep in mind too that by your Senior year your schedule is completely cleared of most if not all required credits. You can either use this time to slack off or bulk up on more Theology classes. By my the second semester of my Junior year I had completed all my required credits and only had electives left and my thesis, of course. I choose to take as many Theology classes as possible. I believe this served me well because I had a larger variety of subject matter than a lot of Theology majors. So, honestly, it comes down to what your plans are. The school, or any school for that matter, isn't going to take you by the hand and tell you "Okay, Jennie, you need to take this class, this class, and this class if you want to be a professor." No, it is your responsibility to be adult enough to choose for yourself. You can go ask your professors or counselor their opinion, but come on your a big kid now and are quite capable of thinking.

I knew going to Franciscan what I wanted my career path to be so I picked classes accordingly. I specialized heavily in Biblical Studies and languages, and I did this without a professor or counselor telling me to do so. I graduated with around 20,000 in loans. Not bad for coming out of Franciscan and far less than what my previous degree plans would have cost me, Vet. Medicine. I loved my time there and grew so much more in love with God while there. I'm from the Bible belt area and rarely found a practicing Catholic my age. So to be around that many young Catholics was great for me. I also worked full time (40hrs a week) and did 18 credit hours a week. I also did a lot of reading on my own to help supplement classes that I was not able to take but would have liked to.

As for the Friars, I took classes with two Friars and a Dominican Priest who taught at Franciscan. All were very good men and I didn't find a problem with any of their Theology, except one really preferred the NO over the Trid. Mass, but that's not really much of a complaint.

To be honest, I'm not sure about the Doctorate part. I know of one friend who has his BA and MA from Franciscan Theology and Philosophy, if I'm correct, and he is currently working on his PhD. I knew of very few that wanted to go as far as getting their PhDs. So I can't really give an opinion on that. I can say though that the faculty of FUS has been wonderful to both my husband and I. We keep in regular contact with some of our professors and they are always willing to give advice on steps we should take to improve our ministries, etc.

All I can say is you get out what you put in. If you put forth the effort you can be successful, but if you don't then well you get the point.[/quote]

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1823662' date='Apr 3 2009, 05:22 PM']What I really want to know is, are people getting into doctoral programs out of Franciscan? Or is like jksoren says with hardly anybody getting in. That to me is the bottom line on whether a program is worthwhile or not. Is it true there is no Greek requirement? Did you ever encounter any of the stuff he talks about with the friars being a little wishy-washy? He (she?) does sound pretty bitter but if I dropped that much $$$ with those results I might be peeved too! I really want to find out because I have talked to people with such different experiences... some people really had a great time, a lot of debt but they learned a lot and grew in their faith, others also had a good time but didn't find it as intellectually engaging/enriching, and then they wound up as janitors. Not that there is anything wrong with being a janitor but it is not what they paid $50,000 in student loans for.[/quote]

The MA in Theology and Christian ministry course is not designed for students who wish to pursue a PhD. The admissions department, nor does the faculty hide it. That is why there is no Greek or Hebrew requirement for graduation. I believe it is bizarre to suggest a BA or MA in theology is a waste of time and money. No, you cannot get the same education reading books and are no more prepared for professional ministry than someone who reads medical books is prepared to be a doctor. The head knowledge would be limited and filled with holes and the practical knowledge would be non-existent. To suggest someone with an MA is nothing more than an "armchair" theologian is correct, and is true for any and all schools. Bishops do not hire MA's from anywhere as their diocesan theologians.

That said FUS students can and do get into PhD programs that choose to pursue PhD programs. Most have to take extra classes to prepare them to enter their program, that is however not unusual. I'm already working towards requirements for a PhD program in England and am half way through my MA at FUS. I also have a BA from FUS. When I finish I my MA I will have $60,000 in debt from going to school there.

[quote]Also not only does Franciscan not help students discern their entering the program, they don't really offer much support once you're here (none), and just about nothing when you are attempting to make it in academia.[/quote]

This is defamation of character and you are lucky FUS isn't the type of school to sue. I spoke extensively to two professors and the director of the undergraduate program before entering FUS. They are not there to hold your hand. If you want someone to hold your hand go back to elementary school. If you want assistance seek it out.

[quote]This is probably because they know, that even with their masters degree, our students generally CAN'T make it in academia[/quote]

Prove it.

[quote]Quite frankly, the worst part about having a theology degree from Franciscan is the fact that its a degree from Franciscan and not really so much the fact that its in theology.[/quote]

B.S. A famous philosopher visited our school while I attended and mentioned that the reason students from FUS excel is not because of incredible intelligence, but incredible spirituality and through that spirituality they came to understand and be able to articulate the deep truths of the faith.

[i]FUS has its failings, but if you supplement your class studies by reading beyond what is required, you will have a good experience and get a solid degree.[/i]

Yes, this is true anywhere. If you aren't reading and studying beyond the required course load you are studying in the wrong field.

[i]I also have a gut feeling that people who join Phatmass and start complaining right off the bat about anything are either 1) alternate screennames (which, for the purpose of making an argument, is against phorum guidelines), 2) friends of already complaining PMers (which is doubly annoying when they pretend not to know one another), or 3) just looking to complain (which is really just a bad attitude).
[/i]
Agreed. This thread is useless. The complainer is better off airing his grievances to the program directors he got his degree from. My guess is he won't do that though because his complaints are without foundation.

[i]The school does not have a good reputation, even amongst the conservative Catholic college demographic. The theology program is terrible and completely incompatible with the academic discipline of "theology".
[/i]
Again, prove it. This is totally baseless and amounts to libel. It is malicious and false.

[i]Almost no one that comes to Franciscan gets into a PhD program.[/i]

Again, prove it. Of those who go into the program having researched the MA, and then even want to get into a PhD program, how many don't make it? Why? Is it because they have to take more background classes or is it because they truly did not receive a good education after having put everything into it that they could? If you were the one that was rejected, I can understand why.

[i]Our classes are hokey[/i]

Libel

[i]but at Franciscan they help ZERO students[/i]

Libel

[i]I have had professors assert that there is no difference between protestants and Catholics, that we can find truth in Islam, that the Bible is not inerrant, that counsels are more political than spiritual
[/i]
There is truth in Islam, even the CCC teaches that. It sounds like someone slept through their classes. I don't believe you.

[i]I had teachers who got out of lecturing or facilitating real graduate level discussion by just having all (like 30) students do in class "presentations" (quite a few actually pull this one)[/i]

Why not name names? Is it because you know this is going to come back to bite you where the sun don't shine? Dr. Schreck does have students do serious research and teach part of the classes. What a great preparation for a Christian Ministry degree. The presentations are usually par for the course, and when they aren't Dr. Schreck supplements their presentation to deliver the information they did not. And the whole class is not just student presentations.

[i]I could really keep harping on SO much more. I am sorry, if you defend this school then I think that you must be willfully blind or that you must have never had a good university experience anywhere else. The school is corrupt, backwards, and does not actually live up to what it purports to be. But as long as we are willing to pretend, perhaps it will live on into the future?
[/i]
Once again. libel. But you made me laugh just now. If this program is so bad, why did you stay in it?
[i]
You misunderstand me about JCC. I know that they wouldn't hire me. Really all I want to say is that colleges/universities (JCC aside) do not hire MA students/graduates. Franciscan does though.
[/i]
With the requirement they obtain their PhD. MA's also teach remedial BA courses which they are fully qualified to do. Some of my best teachers at FUS have MAs. FUS is not the only university that hires MAs, most in fact, do.

[i]For students coming to the MA program that have no prior background in theology, it costs about $40,000. I knew full well that I was going to pay a lot and I was willing to do it, because, after all it was Franciscan and I was on a mission. Well, I'm still on a mission....but I also could have should have gone to a better school for a fraction of the price. This school is a scam.[/i]

That is your own fault for getting into that kind of debt. FUS however is not a scam. Of course, I am sure you know better than the Holy Father too.

[i]I'm sorry to say this, but I personally never learned anything from a catechist. In my experience, they were never able to help me with any of my difficult philosophical objections to the faith when I was first looking to the Church.[/i]

Volunteer catechists are there to teach the basic principles of the Catholic faith. To expect anything more is absurd. Scholars and pastors are there to help you with your more difficult questions about the faith.

[i]My children (I have one daughter) will never take CCD class at our parish. They will "mingle" with plenty of children, but I think that their religious education is our responsibility. Vatican II actually says as much, we are the primary educators of our children in this matter and it is our God given duty to fulfill it.[/i]

I haven't even finished my degree and I know that religious education is your primary responsibility. You are not the only one responsible for it, unless you think the pastor should stop giving homilies too. That alone tells me you did not pay attention or do your homework. That is too bad that you have such a bad attitude you would not assist with a CCD program. You could be a valuable asset to a DRE and pastor if your heart was in the right place.

[i]The grace of God reached me in SPITE of my CCD teachers, not because of it. I do work to evangelize though and I don't belong to a country club.[/i]

That is exactly why we need schools like FUS that you insist on slandering. Catholic education is so poor that schools like FUS are just now laying the ground work again for good catechetical programs across the nation.

[i]The council of Trent says that? Where?[/i]

Apparently there is at least one thing wrong at FUS. How on earth did you get your degree?

[i]What I really want to know is, are people getting into doctoral programs out of Franciscan?[/i]

Yes Maggie, they are. I'm only half way done with my MA and I have two schools that are open to considering me for the PhD that I have spoken to. Both will require a few extra classes before I start, which is fine by me.

[i]one or two flakes.[/i]

Every school has a couple of flakes. That is just the nature of the hiring process.

[i]Personally I think orthodoxy in a college setting is over-rated except in terms of fellowship and extracurriculars.[/i]

Why would you want to be taught by a heretic? The education you receive shapes who you are. There is no situation in which formal heresy in faculty is acceptable at a Catholic college.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1823793' date='Apr 3 2009, 07:18 PM']Why would you want to be taught by a heretic? The education you receive shapes who you are. There is no situation in which formal heresy in faculty is acceptable at a Catholic college.[/quote]

[i]No situation in which formal heresy in faculty is acceptable at a Catholic college [/i]- very true. At least with regard to the professors teaching Catholic theology. However in my case I always got more from interacting with professors (in every subject) who were ambivalent or even hostile to the Truth. It forced me to do my own research, come up with my own arguments etc. My experience in the university setting was more of an exchange of ideas, iron sharpens iron etc, rather than me as a sponge taking in the information that was presented to me. I went to a very secular, almost anti-Christian public university and I loved every minute of it! Granted one does not study theology at a public school. However my philosophy professors were without exception dyed in the wool heretics... the whole point of higher education is development of critical thinking skills and I definitely got more of that when I disagreed with my profs!

I think the main problem (and probably what most burns jksoren) is the cost. He is not the only alum I have spoken to who is deeply unhappy with his alma mater and money plays a big part. The people I know have had their vocations either derailed (religious life) or completely destroyed (marriage) as a result of the loan debt. And I think really at the undergraduate level is where the university seems irresponsible... these are young kids who really love God and so studying theology seems like a logical thing to do. But I think for most it's just not realistic to get a bachelor's degree in theology for tens of thousands of dollars. And they need the administration to help them determine that because when you're 18 and on fire for God you're not thinking about how crushing debt can implode a marriage or keep you out of religious life for another five years, you're thinking about how you get to study theology for the next four years at a really orthodox Catholic school! It's a huge mistake and there's no undoing it, no bankruptcy allowed for student loans

Edited April 3, 2009 by Maggie