Happy Birthday, Novus Ordo

[Aloysius]

[quote name='kafka' post='1824248' date='Apr 4 2009, 02:43 AM']The liturgy will be among the least of the problems in the Church as we begin to embark upon the Tribulation. There are problems of Catholics and Christians denying more fundamental beliefs within the hierarchy of truths much greater than the mere form of the liturgy which will eventually be dissolved.

As long as the Lord's Supper is renewed wherever the Faithful gather with a priest and the sacrificial death of Christ is renewed in the consecration of the Body and Blood of Christ, that will be fine for a while.[/quote]
the Liturgy is always the Church's BIGGEST concern. There is never any concern which will be any bigger in the Church than the liturgy, because it is the Church's expression of perfect worship of God. we should only be so lucky that in the midst of great persecutions of the Church, the Bishops as Apostles of Our Lord Jesus Christ are more concerned with how we worship God Almighty than our mortal safety.

if a meteor was about to be hurled down from heaven by God to end the human race tomorrow, nothing would be a better use of the Pope's time than to say "Do the liturgy this way with prayer and reverence to worship almighty God"

[Aloysius]

[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_AiM_qVeVUEY/RejcU-ca0tI/AAAAAAAAAsE/9sx-yk8MiZk/s400/savetheliturgymedium.jpg[/img]

(that phrase is a reference to the TV show "Heroes", ie "save the cheerleader, save the world"... and it is very very very true.)

[kafka]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1824249' date='Apr 4 2009, 01:44 AM']there certainly is Mass in heaven: it is what we are participating in through the liturgy here on earth. all our liturgies are participations in the liturgy of heaven. that is, in large part, what the book of Revelation is all about: the heavenly liturgy.[/quote]
The Book of Revelation is about the events of the End Times/Tribulation, leading up to the Second Coming of Christ unto the General Judgment and General Resurrection unto the New Heaven and New Earth.

There is no need for a Mass in Heaven since all Saints and Angels will see God face to face and live with Him forever. The whole purpose of the Mass will be fulfilled, and no longer need to be celebrated, since the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ will be completed in all his Saints.

[Aloysius]

SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy:
[quote]8. In the earthly liturgy we take part in a foretaste of that heavenly liturgy which is celebrated in the holy city of Jerusalem toward which we journey as pilgrims, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, a minister of the holies and of the true tabernacle [22]; we sing a hymn to the Lord's glory with all the warriors of the heavenly army; venerating the memory of the saints, we hope for some part and fellowship with them; we eagerly await the Saviour, Our Lord Jesus Christ, until He, our life, shall appear and we too will appear with Him in glory [23].[/quote]

There is much exegesis devoted to the idea that the book of Revelations, in one of its many meanings (it also certainly describes the end times), is describing the heavenly liturgy. This seems confirmed by the language used here by the Second Vatican Council discussing how the heavenly liturgy is celebrated in the heavenly Jerusalem; as a student of the book of Revelations yourself I am sure you can see many of the parallels being drawn there as it discusses the Sacred Liturgy.

[kafka]

and BTW for all the posts ad nauseum about how great the traditional Latin liturgy is and how important the liturgical renewal is I rarely see the name Jesus Christ come up, and perhaps what He might think of things. I rarely ever see him in the Gospels teaching about the Liturgy, other than the cleansing at the Temple, which seems to imply that there are greater things than the Liturgy. I do see and hear him rebuking the Pharisees quite a bit, for their over-concern with forms, and laws and ancient stodgy customs, etc. I do see him condemning an over-institutional view of Church.

BTW I once was a traditional Catholic, and served at a Latin Mass for five years everyday.

I agree there are many liturgical errors today. In fact the Liturgy might just as well transcend beyond all your stodgy old, and conditioned world views, and transform into something more pure and glorious than the traditional Lation liturgy and/or the Novus Ordo. In any case the core consencration of the Eucharist is what is important, not the outer shell of the celebration. Those who believe shall believe, those who choose not to believe will not regardless of form. This age is impious, changing an outer form shall not change the inner heart. God effecting a change in the inner heart shall effect a change in the concretized forms of religion/liturgy etc.

Grow up.



That is my opinion, until then go on with your cause.

[jeffpugh]

No, you're right. Keep Christ central. We're not subject to the law, we do this out of love. Let's not forget this. Reform of the reform out of love!

[kafka]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1824266' date='Apr 4 2009, 02:09 AM']SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy:


There is much exegesis devoted to the idea that the book of Revelations, in one of its many meanings (it also certainly describes the end times), is describing the heavenly liturgy. This seems confirmed by the language used here by the Second Vatican Council discussing how the heavenly liturgy is celebrated in the heavenly Jerusalem; as a student of the book of Revelations yourself I am sure you can see many of the parallels being drawn there as it discusses the Sacred Liturgy.[/quote]
that is pretty poor quoting a small Church document, that needs to be interpreted in a larger context.

The heavenly worship of the Angels and Saints transcends any poor and imperfect liturgy on Earth. There is no form of Liturgy in Heaven since everyone is completely free and worshiping God beyond Time and Place. 'The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.' The Sabbath (spiritually referring to the Liturgy) is no more needed in Heaven since man in immediate vision of God no longer needs it.

Any sort of reference of the Heavenly worship of God in Scripture is in a sense symbolic, since we dont know exactly what goes on in Heaven except the fundamentals of immediate vision of God which is the purpose of our existance.

Other than that I will quit arguing with you. Just wanted to concretize some of my ideas and get into some sort of dialogue with you.

Edited April 4, 2009 by kafka

[Maggyie]

Well I think you may have short-circuited the dialogue thing

[quote]I agree there are many liturgical errors today. In fact the Liturgy might just as well transcend beyond all your stodgy old, and conditioned world views[/quote]

[quote]Grow up.[/quote]

That kinda came out of nowhere?

[kafka]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1824295' date='Apr 4 2009, 05:37 AM']Well I think you may have short-circuited the dialogue thing





That kinda came out of nowhere? [/quote]
true. I think my anger got a bit triggered. I had a lot of bad experiences with the Latin Mass, the Latin Mass movement and Latin Mass people.

I'm sorry I got personal Al.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1824278' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:33 AM']The heavenly worship of the Angels and Saints transcends any poor and imperfect liturgy on Earth. There is no form of Liturgy in Heaven since everyone is completely free and worshiping God beyond Time and Place. 'The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.' The Sabbath (spiritually referring to the Liturgy) is no more needed in Heaven since man in immediate vision of God no longer needs it.[/quote]
I cannot, as an Eastern Christian, agree with your comments, because they contradict the entire tradition of the Eastern Churches. The liturgy on earth is the icon, i.e., it is the form and substance, of the cosmic liturgy, and to say anything else involves overthrowing the entire patristic tradition, which is itself founded upon the incarnation of the eternal Logos. The earthly liturgy, as the icon of the heavenly liturgy, is itself a participation in the vision of the uncreated energies. It is the living experience of [i]theosis[/i] here and now, and so I cannot agree with your comments.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1824394' date='Apr 4 2009, 01:03 PM']I cannot, as an Eastern Christian, agree with your comments, because they contradict the entire tradition of the Eastern Churches. The liturgy on earth is the icon, i.e., it is the form and substance, of the cosmic liturgy, and to say anything else involves overthrowing the entire patristic tradition, which is itself founded upon the incarnation of the eternal Logos. The earthly liturgy, as the icon of the heavenly liturgy, is itself a participation in the vision of the uncreated energies. It is the living experience of [i]theosis[/i] here and now, and so I cannot agree with your comments.[/quote]
I dont have an understanding of you terms such as icon, cosmic liturgy, uncreated energies, theosis, etc. so I really cant argue with you.

I guess I was suggesting that in Heaven the Angels and Saints are in immediate vision of God. They see him face to face, they experience Him, and they are with Him forever in a realm beyond Time and Place, therefore they are in no need of a formal liturgy. Worship of God is forever, by the nature of their experience of God, and by the nature of Timeless and Placeless Heaven. This must be an individual as well as collective worship of God which is unfathomable to us here on earth. The prayers and music sung must be beyond anything comparison on earth. At the end of time the liturgy here on earth is dissolved.

There is no more Lord's Supper in Heaven, since we are with Jesus forever beyond Time and Place, and our souls and eventually our bodies in the state of sanctifying grace have sprung up into eternal life. I believe St John Marie Vianney was a bit saddened in a nostalgic way on his death bed over knowing that he would never recieve Jesus in the Eucharist again.

Those here on earth in the state of grace are united with the Angels and Saints in worship of God and this is expressed in the liturgy, but this must only be a foreshadowing, and a pale and limited participation.

I guess these are some of my basic thoughts, and need develepment. Maybe they arent that good, but I think it is important to keep the big picture in mind with regards to the liturgy here on earth, and not treat it as an end in itself, or an idol. I'm not saying anyone here at phatmass is treating it this way, but I have seen more than a few in real life treat the liturgy almost like an idol.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1824410' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:00 PM']I guess I was suggesting that in Heaven the Angels and Saints are in immediate vision of God. They see him face to face, they experience Him, and they are with Him forever in a realm beyond Time and Place, therefore they are in no need of a formal liturgy. Worship of God is forever, by the nature of their experience of God, and by the nature of Timeless and Placeless Heaven. This must be an individual as well as collective worship of God which is unfathomable to us here on earth. The prayers and music sung must be beyond anything comparison on earth. At the end of time the liturgy here on earth is dissolved.[/quote]
As the hesychastic saints of the Byzantine tradition tell us: the Christian faithful already (i.e., in the earthly liturgy which renders present the heavenly liturgy) experience the vision of God by their participation in the sacraments. The vision of God is not something that comes only after one dies, but is here and now made manifest in the divine liturgy of the Church. The celebration of the earthly liturgy involves an immediate participation in the heavenly liturgy, because the earthly liturgy is the sacramental representation of Christ's one oblation, while also being the sacramental participation in the cosmic worship of the Triune God enacted by the whole of creation in heaven.

Sadly, much of what you are saying was said by the Protestant Reformers, who – like yourself – failed to grasp the true nature of the Church's worship.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1824410' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:00 PM']At the end of time the liturgy here on earth is dissolved.[/quote]
No, it is not dissolved, because the earthly liturgy is one and the same liturgy with that enacted in heaven. The earthly liturgy is the full manifestation of the heavenly liturgy. Those who celebrate the divine liturgy on earth are already in heaven.

[quote name='kafka' post='1824410' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:00 PM']There is no more Lord's Supper in Heaven, since we are with Jesus forever beyond Time and Place, and our souls and eventually our bodies in the state of sanctifying grace have sprung up into eternal life.[/quote]
The Lord's sacrifice has been taken into eternity, and so it is an ever present reality that can never pass away. What is done under the sacred signs of bread and wine on earth, i.e., the [i]anamnesis[/i] of Christ's passion and death, will continue forever without the need of those signs into eternity once we all pass through the veil of death.

[quote name='kafka' post='1824410' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:00 PM']Those here on earth in the state of grace are united with the Angels and Saints in worship of God and this is expressed in the liturgy, but this must only be a foreshadowing, and a pale and limited participation.[/quote]
The Eastern Fathers recognize no "limited participation" in grace (i.e., in the uncreated energy of God), one either participates or not. Your views conform better to those of Luther, than to the views of the Fathers.

[quote name='kafka' post='1824410' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:00 PM']I guess these are some of my basic thoughts, and need develepment. Maybe they aren't that good . . .[/quote]
I agree, your thoughts expressed so far aren't good.

[quote name='kafka' post='1824410' date='Apr 4 2009, 12:00 PM']. . . but I think it is important to keep the big picture in mind with regards to the liturgy here on earth, and not treat it as an end in itself, or an idol. I'm not saying anyone here at phatmass is treating it this way, but I have seen more than a few in real life treat the liturgy almost like an idol.[/quote]
An icon is not an idol, because an idol is dead, it is the mere work of human hands devoid of divine energy; while an icon is the work not simply of a man, but of the whole Church, for it is an [i]anamnesis[/i] of the Church's experience of God, written by the iconographer who in every detail follows the tradition of the Church, and because it is written in this manner it is infused with divine energy. That is why an icon is the manifestation of what it signifies, and because it is a real manifestation of what it reveals it follows that it is a living reality. In other words, an icon makes present what it signifies, because it acts as an extension of the incarnation through space and time.

Sadly, much of what you have said in your posts so far has been condemned as heretical by the Church Fathers (in particular St. John Damascene and St. Theodore Studite), and by the ecumenical councils. You seem to have more in common with the Iconoclasts than you do with the Church.

Edited April 4, 2009 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1824425' date='Apr 4 2009, 02:25 PM']As the hesychastic saints of the Byzantine tradition tell us: the Christian faithful already (i.e., in the earthly liturgy which renders present the heavenly liturgy) experience the vision of God by their participation in the sacraments. The vision of God is not something that comes only after one dies, but is here and now made manifest in the divine liturgy of the Church. The celebration of the earthly liturgy involves an immediate participation in the heavenly liturgy, because the earthly liturgy is the sacramental representation of Christ's one oblation, while also being the sacramental participation in the cosmic worship of the Triune God enacted by the whole of creation in heaven.

Sadly, much of what you are saying was said by the Protestant Reformers, who – like yourself – failed to grasp the true nature of the Church's worship.[/quote]


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1824428' date='Apr 4 2009, 02:37 PM']No, it is not dissolved, because the earthly liturgy is one and the same liturgy with that enacted in heaven. The earthly liturgy is the full manifestation of the heavenly liturgy. Those who celebrate the divine liturgy on earth are already in heaven.


The Lord's sacrifice has been taken into eternity, and so it is an ever present reality that can never pass away. What is done under the sacred signs of bead and wine on earth, i.e., the [i]anamnesis[/i] of Christ's passion and death, will continue forever without the need of those signs into eternity once we all pass through the veil of death.


The Eastern Fathers recognize no "limited participation" in grace (i.e., in the uncreated energy of God), one either participates or not. Your views conform better to those of Luther, than to the views of the Fathers.


I agree, your thoughts expressed so far aren't good.


An icon is not an idol, because an idol is dead, it is the mere work of human hands devoid of divine energy; while and icon is the work not simply of a man, but of the whole Church, for it is an [i]anamnesis[/i] of the Church's experience of God, written by the iconographer who in every detail follows the tradition of the Church, and because it is written in this manner it is infused with divine energy. That is why an icon is the manifestation of what it signifies, and because it is a real manifestation of what it reveals it follows that it is a living reality. In other words, an icon makes present what it signifies, because it acts as an extension of the incarnation through space and time.

Sadly, much of what you have said was condemned as heretical by the Church Fathers (in particular St. John Damascene and St. Theodore Studite), and by the ecumenical councils. You seem to have more in common with the Iconoclasts than you do with the Church.[/quote]
Sadly you are putting a label on me, implying I'm a Protestant or a heretic. I disagree that I experience the immediate vision of God when I recieve the Sacraments. I agree men in grace on earth are united with the Angels and Saints in worshiping God, yet this union cannot be considered a fullness . Heaven is substantially different than earth, and a person who enters Heaven undergoes an enormous change, what exactly this change is I really dont know, maybe I will study what theologians have speculated on the topic based on S.S. I agree the Death of Jesus Christ is beyond Time and Place and the Saints and Angels will see it in Heaven in awe forever.

I dont know how to respond to some of your more Eastern theology, since I'm not well versed in it.


[i]Those who celebrate the divine liturgy on earth are already in heaven.[/i]

I hope you meant that symbolically, cause it isnt true, I mean if you want to start throwing the word heresy around, that statment smacks of it. I'm not in Heaven when I go to Mass. When I recieve Jesus in the Eucharist there certainly is a sort of mystical aspect of it, and perhaps I might experience a sort of Timelessness or Placelessness in contemplation, but to say I am actually in Heaven, is absurd. Plus how could a person celebrating the Divine Liturgy whose is in the state of mortal sin possibly be in Heaven?

Now there is a theologically speculative idea that once a person Heaven, he has always been there from its creation since Heaven is Timeless and Placeless. So in a sense all those who are saved are already of Heaven. Yet I dont know how that fits into your eastern theology.

Anyhow I'm not going to respond to you anymore since I am not well versed in Eastern Theology, so I might misinterpret the points you are making.

[Aloysius]

participation in the liturgy is participation in the heavenly liturgy, that's not out of context in the Vatican II document I posted, that's what they mean by it (what Apotheoun is saying): mass IS heaven on earth. that is not heresy, that is fundamental truth about what mass is. when you participate in the liturgy, you fully participate in heaven: that is heaven, that's what heaven is. the whole of the liturgy, not just the consecration.

and the liturgy is an icon; those who "wrote" the liturgy are the iconographers, interpreting the collective "anamnesis" or "memory" of the Church and making it truly perfect. those who mess with the liturgy are like those who deface icons.... it doesn't make the icons any less full of divine energy (as the Second Council of Nicaea, uncontestedly binding fully upon Eastern and Western Christians, stated they were **) and the same is true about the liturgy.

**[quote]As the sacred and life-giving cross is everywhere set up as a symbol, so also should the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the holy angels, as well as those of the saints and other pious and holy men be embodied in the manufacture of sacred vessels, tapestries, vestments, etc., and exhibited on the walls of churches, in the homes, and in all conspicuous places, by the roadside and everywhere, to be revered by all who might see them. For the more they are contemplated, the more they move to fervent memory of their prototypes. [u]Therefore, it is proper to accord to them a fervent and reverent adoration, not, however, the veritable worship which, according to our faith, belongs to the Divine Being alone [/u]— for the honor accorded to the image passes over to its prototype, and whoever adores the image adores in it the reality of what is there represented.
....
We salute the venerable images. We place under anathema those who do not do this. Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about. idols. Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images. Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods. Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God. Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols.[/quote]

back to the Vatican II Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, I really should've included the references cited by that quote:
[quote]8. In the earthly liturgy we take part in a foretaste of that heavenly liturgy which is celebrated in the holy city of Jerusalem toward which we journey as pilgrims, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, a minister of the holies and of the true tabernacle [22]; we sing a hymn to the Lord's glory with all the warriors of the heavenly army; venerating the memory of the saints, we hope for some part and fellowship with them; we eagerly await the Saviour, Our Lord Jesus Christ, until He, our life, shall appear and we too will appear with Him in glory [23].

[22] Cf. Apoc. 21:2; Col. 3:1; Heb. 8:2.

[23] Cf. Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4.[/quote]
nota bene: Apoc. refers to the Book of the Apocalypse, the old name for the Book of Revelations.

this is a literal truth: the liturgy is heaven on earth. it is not your eternal entrance into heaven, it is your temporal experience of it to be sure, and you can still end up in eternal hell; but here on earth when you join in the liturgy you are entering into the heavenly liturgy, which is truly what heaven is: heaven is a liturgy. after death, you will see that liturgy without the veils blocking you from seeing the full reality of it when you experience it on earth, but everything that happens in the heavenly liturgy also happens in the earthly liturgy. this is the Catholic Faith about the liturgy, it is not limited to Eastern theology.