Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

[CatholicCrusader]

I read a post that says people who are not Catholic can go to Heaven. This seems very much unfounded (apart from an encyclical from the current Pope, which he did not state he was speaking infallibly and in which he was not very clear in what he said, at least in the original version--many "good translations" seem to exasperbate his point on the salvation of those existing outside the Church, at least from what I've read). My question seems to just be an ongoing one of the post asking about this, and it is as follows:
How can we say for sure that those existing outside the Church can be saved if in the Fourth Lateran Council is states "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which [b]no one at all[/b] can be saved and again in [i]Unam Sanctam[/i] that "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is [b]absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature[/b] to be subject to the Roman Pontiff" and again in the Bull [i]Cantate Domino[/i] "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that [b]none[/b] of those existing outside the Catholic Church, [u]not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal[/u]; [b]but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, [u]unless before death they are joined with Her[/u][/b]; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that [u]only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation[/u], and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, [b][u]no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ[/u], can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church[/b]"?? Thank you for your response. God bless you.

[dUSt]

Moving to the Debate Table. - dUSt

[phatcatholic]

start reading :

[b]--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1203"]Ignorance: Invincible and Vincible[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/How_to_Become_a_Catholic.asp"]How to Become a Catholic[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=964"]Is There Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY2.TXT"]Leonard Freeney on "No Salvation Outside the Church"[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/FEENEY.TXT"]Tragic Errors of Leonard Freeney[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/EXTRAECC.TXT"]No Salvation Outside the Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4084"]Salvation Outside the Church[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/SCRIPTUR/CHURCHSA.TXT"]Which Church Saves?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3447"]The Necessity of Being Catholic[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=674"]Is There Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=4085"]Can Outsiders Be Insiders?[/url]
--[url="http://cuf.org/member/withoutchurch.pdf"]Without the Church There Is No Salvation[/url]
--[url="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/salvation.html"]Who Will Be Saved?[/url]
--[url="http://www.catholic-defense.com/no_salvation.htm"]No Salvation Outside the Church?[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/SPIRCATH.htm#10"]The Church Necessary for Salvation[/url]
--[url="http://css.catholicexchange.com/truthtract.asp?qid=67"]If "No Salvation Outside the Church" Is Infallible, How Can We Say Today that People Outside Can Be Saved?[/url]
--[url="http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/critic2.html"]"Mr. Critic" and Salvation Outside the Catholic Church[/url][/b]

also, this [b][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=7572"]recent debate[/url] [/b]on the subject here at phatmass may help.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Hananiah]

There's been a tendency in the past several decades to subject the dogma of extra ecclesiam nulla salus to the death of a thousand qualificaions. The original documents simply do not leave room for so many exceptions. I can only think of 4 exceptions which would not directly contradict Unam Sanctam, Cantate Domino, the Council of Florence, etc.

1. Those who accept the authority of the Catholic Church and submit to the Pope, but who die before recieving the water baptism which would have made them a member of the Catholic Church, can be saved through a baptism of desire.

2. Those who are baptized into heretical or schismatic communions are made spiritual members of the Catholic Church, and if such a person dies before consciously rejecting the Catholic Church (and thus excluding himself from her membership), he can be saved. I'm sure many Protestant children have been saved this way. Most likley there have also been many Eastern Orthodox and Copts throughout history who have lived their entire lives without ever hearing that their Church was in schism, and thus were saved in this manner.

3. Those who never hear the Gospel or know of the Catholic Church, but who are lead by private revelation to reject the errors and superstitions of their pagan society and find at least an implicit knowledge of Christ, can be saved through a baptism of desire.

4. Those who are unbaptized, but who are martyred for the faith, can be saved through a baptism of blood. I'd like to think that aborted babies are saved in this manner.

[CatholicCrusader]

I find it nearly impossible to believe that aborted babies can be saved (which makes the practice that much mroe evil). If you think about it, if God were miraculously saving all these babies (who in ordinary circumstances would not be saved, for they are not baptised), then why would Satan love abortion so much? Why would the Church so viametly (sp?) defend against this practice, and why would St. Thomas Aquinas make it so clear in the Summa that those who die without the grace of baptism (but commit no actual sin) go to Limbo? It is clear only infants (including those in the womb) can commit no ACTUAL sin because they are not yet at the age of use (or "the age of reason"). It is clear, then, that those who commit no actual sin but also do not receive baptism can be saved, for they shall enter into Limbo, according to St. Thomas Aquinas. St. Thomas was undoubtedly the most intellectual person of all history and the most founded in explaining the Faith. He, too, was a very holy man. Although this teaching has yet to be defined by the Church, it is clear that we are in no position to make up whatever doctrine we think, while such a holy and intellectual man such as St. Thomas supports this belief. Also, the Church has subscribed to this belief (yet, not infallibly). God bless.

[Brother Adam]

to insist that infant mortality suggests all infant souls go to hell, suggests a god that is not just, but evil. Those who are not able to be baptized or make a decision for themselves are within God's grace through his loving mercy.

[Ellenita]

Amen, Bro Adam!

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 24 2004, 03:26 PM'] to insist that infant mortality suggests all infant souls go to hell, suggests a god that is not just, but evil. Those who are not able to be baptized or make a decision for themselves are within God's grace through his loving mercy. [/quote]
Amen bro adam!

[CatholicCrusader]

[quote]to insist that infant mortality suggests all infant souls go to hell, suggests a god that is not just, but evil. Those who are not able to be baptized or make a decision for themselves are within God's grace through his loving mercy. [/quote]

By whose standards do you judge? Is God unjust (and evil?!) by not allowing entrance into the kingdom of Heaven he who does not enter His Church? Certainly this is not the case. [b]For just as an infant receives baptism apart from his own intention and thereby merits eternal salvation, so also can an infant, through no neglect on his own part, lose salvation by not receiving baptism.[/b] It would seem that God would NOT be just to allow the unbaptized infants full and unlimited entrance into Heaven, for if He allows those who, through no good deed of their own to enter eternal happiness, so too should He reject that same happiness to those, who through no fault of their own, are not baptized. It is only logical to come to this conclusion, to which St. Thomas Aquinas and all intellectual theologians have arrived. Further, Limbo is not hell in the strict sense. Although Limbo is a part of hell, it is not actually fully hell, for those in Limbo suffer only pain of LOSS (they do not experience the joys of Heaven, that is, they have loss of God), but they DO NOT suffer the pain of sense (fire). This place of Limbo is described as a place of "natural happiness". Therefore, in no wise can God be considered unjust, for He who is all-just and, although willing the salvation of all, bound the Church and all creatures to be baptized in order to merit eternal salvation. God bless you.

[Livin_the_MASS]

CCC 1283
[quote]With the respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church [b]invites us to trust in God's mercy and to pray for their salvation[/b].[/quote]

[CatholicCrusader]

Well I'm not saying it's wrong to pray for them, but there is absolutely no "good hope" (as the Syllabus of Errors would say) or confidence that someone who is not baptised can go to Heaven. The new "Catechism of the Catholic Church" also says that without the Catholic Faith it is impossible to please God (c.f., para. 848). So, I would definitely stand by what I have said in light of Tradition and Dogma of the Church. In addition, the new catechism also supports me. It doesn't at all say that these infants go to Heaven. It says we can pray for them. We CAN pray for Judas, but who would when there are so many other causes we can pray for that seem more probable to be answered in a positive manner by God. It would be like us praying for God to save a protestant or someone else who is outside the Church (at least most protestants are baptised!). Anyway, this catechism supports be based upon paragraph 848, which states that without the Catholic Faith we cannot pelase God. Also, this catechism was not even called for by a council, let alone promulgated by one. Therefore, it is not certainly infallible (although, I have yet to find error in it). God bless.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I will tun your attention to the Gospel of Mark 10:25-27

[quote]25:It is easier for a camel to pass through [the] eye of [a] needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.[/quote]

[quote]26:They were exceedingly astonished and said among themselves, "Then who can be saved? [/quote]

[quote]27:Jesus looked at them and said. "[b]For human beings it is impossible, but not for God. All things are possible for God[/b].[/quote]

To limit ones judgement of Salvation is wrong. Christ makes it clear above that, "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR GOD!"

Salvation is ultimately up to God.

I draw your attention to this passage in Holy Scripture!

Matthew 7:1-2

[quote]1: Stop judging, that you may not be judged.[/quote]

[quote]2: For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.[/quote]

St. Faustina

[quote][b]We resemble God most when we forgive our neighbors[/b][/quote] (Diary 1148)

Our Lord to St. Faustina He wanted His Divine Mercy known to all mankind.

Our Lord to St. Faustina (Diary 186-187)

[quote]"I desire that you know more profoundly the love that burns in My Heart for souls, and you will understand this when you meditate upon My Passion. [b]Call upon My Mercy on  behalf of sinners; I desire their salvation[/b]. When you say this prayer, with a contrite heart and with faith on behalf of some sinner, I will give him the grace of conversion. This is the prayer:"[/quote]

[quote]"O Blood and Water, which gushed forth from the Heart of Jesus as a fount of Mercy for us, I trust in You."[/quote]

(Diary1146)

[quote][b][Let] the greatest sinner place their trust in My mercy[/b]. They have the right before others to trust in the abyss of My mercy. My daughter, write about My mercy towards tormented souls. souls that make an appeal to My mercy delight Me. To such souls I grant even more graces than they ask. [b]I cannot punish even the greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to My compassion, but on the contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy[/b].
Write: before I come as Judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice...[/quote]

(Bolds added by me.)

He came for sinners remember! Not the righteous!

Edited March 25, 2004 by Jason

[CatholicCrusader]

All you said is true. God is not limited by the Sacarments, but we must go by what we have been taught by the Church, infallibly in three areas. I posted the best (full) defense of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in Apologetics. To get the full defense, please go there. Also, to respond to your accusations (?) of me judging, I respond with I Cor. ii.15 "But the spiritual man judgeth all things: and he himself is judged of no man." It is clear that we can MAKE judgments. If a man murders an innocent man, clearly I can judge that is wronf, or is a person denies a Truth of the Faith, that, too, is wrong. We have to go by what we know to be true. It is not limiting God to defend His Church's teaching on Salvation (including where it says in St. Matthew's Gospel xxviii.19 "Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost." and again where Our Lord says "He who believeth shall be baptised, but he that believeth not shall be condemned.") He makes the comparison to those who belive and those who do not. If one is not baptised, he believes. The opposite is also true. He that believeth not is baptised not. There is aboslutely no error in believing what I do (as St. Thomas Aquinas taught this) and the Church has done nothing but support it. Further, the Church has constantly taught that none existing outside of Her can be saved. The way to enter the Church is by baptism. God bless.

[BLAZEr]

ok, these debates about who is and is not saved just chap my buttocks.

I'm gonna address some things, but more than anything I'm gonna say "[color=red][Edited by IP][/color] and start evangelizing and maybe you'll save a few souls rather than lose your own by the ridiculous amount of time you waste in these stupid arguments."

That being said:

Why does Satan love abortion, even if the baby MIGHT go to Heaven? Because Satan is stupid and because he is still getting OTHER souls, not the least of which are the baby's mother, the doctors, nurses, pro-choice advocates, security personal, funders, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts etc, who all participate in the murder of this innocent child.

Think about it, why would Satan allow saints to be martyred, since we know they will be more effective in Heaven and that their blood is the seed of the Church?

Becasue Satan is stupid. Get behind me devil, you can't take my joy!


[color=red][Edited by Ice Princess: Play nice!][/color]

[Laudate_Dominum]

:stupid: :ph34r: Edited March 25, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum