Chi, Qi, Ki ?

[jon2004]

First post, RAWK. Ok, for any martial artists out there how do you unify the idea of chi(etc.) from your martial art with your Faith, or do you not? Me personally I look on chi as efficient bio mechanics. Any other thoughts?

[Ash Wednesday]

I did martial arts for five years, right now I have a back injury needing surgery and have moved to a new location so I've been on hiatus.

I think people approach "chi" in different ways depending on who you ask and what school you train at. I don't even think all martial artists agree on what "chi" is -- a lot of them don't believe in it in that "mystical" sense. I think Bruce Lee was a pragmatist like this, and helped a lot of people in modern martial arts understand martial arts as something practical and approachable, not just some aloof mystical practice for a select few.

I believe "chi" is a literal translation of the word "energy". The school I trained at kept it somewhat open and did not try to apply a religious or spiritual meaning to it and just said you can just think of it as being simple energy, what exists in science -- I think they understood that some of the people at our school were devout Christians. Like you I pretty much acknowledge it as physics. They talk about placement of the body and using momentum in hapkido and sometimes speak of "chi" or "ki" -- for me it was physics and leverage.

The way some people regard "chi" in the more "spiritual" way like reiki or apply it to feng shui in a way that is supposed to directly affect events in your life is not compatible with the faith, though. That starts to border into occultism and superstition and is pretty much bunk. And generally just not a very pragmatic approach in martial arts anyway.

Welcome to phatmass.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Ash Wednesday

[Madame Vengier]

Yes, it's just energy. We have it. God made it in us. It doesn't contradict the Faith.

[MissyP89]

I would say it's incompatible. The Church teaches that the only non-biological energy in us comes from the soul. Saying that chi--life energy--is in harmony with the Faith doesn't make sense.

[philothea]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1822931' date='Apr 2 2009, 08:13 PM']Yes, it's just energy. We have it. God made it in us. It doesn't contradict the Faith.[/quote]
Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

I mean, I do have [i]energy[/i] stored in my body. Too much, to be honest. But God didn't put it there.

I, ahem, added it myself by eating too many peanuts.

Are you talking about momentum, or power, thermal mass, or soul, or what?

[jon2004]

Peanut energy is the most powerful energy, from a martial arts perspective.

One of th guys in my iaido class thinks of chi as the holy spirit; un orthodox to be sure but interesting.

As to the very idea not being compatible with the Church, I disagree. Just because it can be translated as life energy doesn't make it so. I think of chi in the terms of a focused and disciplined body. When I started martial arts I kind of looked ascance at the "internal" or meditative kata of my own art and others but after years of performing them in a meditative mind I can certainly notice a difference. I'm just not inclined to chock it up to the love dovey new age terms that have been applied to it.

[philothea]

[quote name='jon2004' post='1823158' date='Apr 2 2009, 11:26 PM']Peanut energy is the most powerful energy, from a martial arts perspective.[/quote]


Good to know!

[quote]One of th guys in my iaido class thinks of chi as the holy spirit; un orthodox to be sure but interesting.

As to the very idea not being compatible with the Church, I disagree. Just because it can be translated as life energy doesn't make it so. I think of chi in the terms of a focused and disciplined body. When I started martial arts I kind of looked ascance at the "internal" or meditative kata of my own art and others but after years of performing them in a meditative mind I can certainly notice a difference. I'm just not inclined to chock it up to the love dovey new age terms that have been applied to it.[/quote]

While I'm only a little familiar with martial arts and eastern mysticism, I have to believe that if something consistently works for a lot of people over a long period time -- as the concept of chi has -- there's something to it. Personally, I think that chi kind of a subconscious shorthand for getting all the parts of your brain and body to perform together in a coordinated fashion.

For example, I can visualize a hay fever attack away, with enough concentration, using images of colored light, but I surely don't think there's any actual colored light movement going on in my nose! The imagery is a tool to let me communicate with my automatic, unconscious histamine reaction.

I suspect the concept of chi is an excellent tool for harnessing normal physical capabilities that you can't directly control.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='philothea' post='1823152' date='Apr 3 2009, 12:11 AM']Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

I mean, I do have [i]energy[/i] stored in my body. Too much, to be honest. But God didn't put it there.

I, ahem, added it myself by eating too many peanuts.

Are you talking about momentum, or power, thermal mass, or soul, or what?[/quote]


I'm talking about energy. Please, if you don't know what it means to have energy please consult a medical encyclopedia.

This is basic Human Makeup 101. I don't know why it's being questioned as to whether energy (chi) is contradictory to the Faith and why anyone would need to explain about energy. Is breath contradictory to the Faith? Do I need to explain what breath is? Energy is as basic to the body as breath is. And God made energy.

Chi actually more specifically refers to the FLOW of energy more so than just energy itself.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1823115' date='Apr 2 2009, 11:42 PM']I would say it's incompatible. The Church teaches that the only non-biological energy in us comes from the soul. Saying that chi--life energy--is in harmony with the Faith doesn't make sense.[/quote]


Oh my goodness.

Energy is the BODY'S ENERGY. It is NOT THE SOUL. How can you say something God made in our bodies is not compatible with the Faith? What are you talking about???

Edited April 3, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[Aloysius]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html"]Jesus Christ the Bearer of the True Water of Life[/url]

Here, the Pontifical Councils for Culture and for Interreligious Dialogue, the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity warn us about the dangers of the New Age, and throughout this document they warn about discussion of "energy" within us, something which inherently applies to "chi"

[quote]The source of healing is said to be within ourselves, something we reach when we are in touch with our inner energy or cosmic energy.[/quote]

[url="http://www.answers.com/topic/chi-1"]http://www.answers.com/topic/chi-1[/url]
[quote]The vital force believed in Taoism and other Chinese thought to be inherent in all things. The unimpeded circulation of chi and a balance of its negative and positive forms in the body are held to be essential to good health in traditional Chinese medicine.[/quote]

The whole document, though, applies to this. We are to be extremely wary of new age terminology such as this, and while perhaps one might attempt to interpret the word "chi" to refer to biological energy, it clearly has a spiritual connotation and clearly is one thing being referred to by "Jesus Christ, the Bearer of the True Water of Life"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1823375' date='Apr 3 2009, 12:38 PM'][url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html"]Jesus Christ the Bearer of the True Water of Life[/url]

Here, the Pontifical Councils for Culture and for Interreligious Dialogue, the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, and the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity warn us about the dangers of the New Age, and throughout this document they warn about discussion of "energy" within us, something which inherently applies to "chi"



[url="http://www.answers.com/topic/chi-1"]http://www.answers.com/topic/chi-1[/url]


The whole document, though, applies to this. We are to be extremely wary of new age terminology such as this, and while perhaps one might attempt to interpret the word "chi" to refer to biological energy, it clearly has a spiritual connotation and clearly is one thing being referred to by "Jesus Christ, the Bearer of the True Water of Life"[/quote]
Chi is not a new age concept, and it does refer to biological energy which we have yet to understand. Tai Chi - the exercises - have shown positive health effects:
[url="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080331220843.htm"]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/...80331220843.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070323105002.htm"]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70323105002.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080620195434.htm"]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/...80620195434.htm[/url]

[url="http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070123143544.htm"]http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...70123143544.htm[/url]

[Aloysius]

I am not necessarily saying not to practice things like Tai Chi, I am saying to be careful about discussing energy within one's body in a quasi-spiritual way, which most people using the term "Chi" are doing. if you're talking about biological energy, ie the stuff converted into glucose from your food, then fine. but be careful because chi tends to refer to immaterial energy from what I've seen, and you shouldn't be doing any type of self-focused immaterial/spiritual meditations, for the danger of what that Vatican Document terms "Spiritual Narcissism"

For instance, I have heard that in some types of Eastern meditation (I do not know if this applies to anything you're talking about or not), one connects their middle finger and their thumb so that the energy (often referred to as "chi") can flow freely through that little circuit... well, biologically, we know that the only thing happening there is that the nerve endings of the thumb are touching something and so are the nerve endings of the middle finger, producing a type of connected feeling between those two fingers but there is certainly no biological energy passing through them... one might interpret it as immaterial energy, in which case one has stepped into the things that this Vatican Document warns to be wary about.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1823470' date='Apr 3 2009, 01:58 PM']I am not necessarily saying not to practice things like Tai Chi, I am saying to be careful about discussing energy within one's body in a quasi-spiritual way, which most people using the term "Chi" are doing. if you're talking about biological energy, ie the stuff converted into glucose from your food, then fine. but be careful because chi tends to refer to immaterial energy from what I've seen, and you shouldn't be doing any type of self-focused immaterial/spiritual meditations, for the danger of what that Vatican Document terms "Spiritual Narcissism"

For instance, I have heard that in some types of Eastern meditation (I do not know if this applies to anything you're talking about or not), one connects their middle finger and their thumb so that the energy can flow freely through that little circuit... well, biologically, we know that the only thing happening there is that the nerve endings of the thumb are touching something and so are the nerve endings of the middle finger, producing a type of connected feeling between those two fingers but there is certainly no biological energy passing through them... one might interpret it as immaterial energy, in which case one has stepped into the things that this Vatican Document warns to be wary about.[/quote]
Its certainly biological. Its immaterial only because at this point we can't identify it the same way we can pick out a white blood cell.

[Aloysius]

there is certainly something biological going on in practices such as tai chi, but is there a biological energy corresponding to the traditional Chinese belief in "chi" is the question

[philothea]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1823273' date='Apr 3 2009, 06:12 AM']I'm talking about energy. Please, if you don't know what it means to have energy please consult a medical encyclopedia.

This is basic Human Makeup 101. I don't know why it's being questioned as to whether energy (chi) is contradictory to the Faith and why anyone would need to explain about energy. Is breath contradictory to the Faith? Do I need to explain what breath is? Energy is as basic to the body as breath is. And God made energy.

Chi actually more specifically refers to the FLOW of energy more so than just energy itself.[/quote]
From the AMA Medical Encyclopedia entry [b]Energy[/b]:

[indent]The calories provided by food used for the body's growth, tissue repair, and physical activity. In nutrition, calories represent the amount of energy contained in foods or the amount of energy expended by a person. To maintain a constant weight, the amount of energy or calories supplied by the diet should not exceed the amount of energy a person expends [see CALORIE REQUIREMENTS]. Growth and recovery from injury, illness or surgery increase an individual's energy requirements. Carbohydrates and fats are the body's main sources of energy. Excess energy is stored in the body as fat.
[/indent]
So, you're talking about fat?