I Suspect It Is Really Simple, No Third Temple, No Messiah!

[tate4242]

Since I began thinking about this issue several years ago I have done quite a bit of waffling back and forth but at this time in my life I am essentially certain that all Christians should pray and spend time studying this question and seriously consider giving our personal support to the ultimate expression of freedom of religion for the Jewish people which is the construction of the Third Temple complex and their right to offer kosher sacrifices therein.

I would like to introduce you to Mr. Boruch Fishman Director of People for a Bill to Build the Bet HaMikdash:

[url="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tate4CentralNova/message/2955"]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tate4CentralNova/message/2955[/url]
RE: Creating the blueprints for the Third Temple

[quote]Hi Mr. Tate:
I read about your support of the rebuilding of the Temple in Israel. I am
pasting below a letter I am sending out regarding efforts to create the
blueprints for the Temple. I would truly appreciate your support. And, if you are
interested in more than mere personal support for the project, I will be happy
to get together with you about ideas for a community project in your area. By
the way, while Gershon Soloman's name is not mentioned in the letter, he is
in the back of our minds as our project moves towards the actual building of the
Temple.

Dear Sirs:

I am the Director of People for a Bill to Build the Bet HaMikdash, (the
Third Temple). My organization received important support from UNESCO this year,
when UNESCO put a link to my organization on their official web site. I
attribute this support to the fact that my organization is the only organization
in the community of organizations dedicated to rebuilding the Jewish Temple in
its place, which created a complete plan for rebuilding the Temple, which does
not rely on a miracle or act of violence. We also support the continuance and
safety of the Al Aksa Mosque, the third most important building to Moslems,
which sits on the southern part of the Temple Mount, no where near the location
of the ancient Jewish Temples.

Coupled with the above, my organization supports limited yet specific
exploration by world experts to determine the exact location of the earlier
Temples. And we support subsequent committee hearings between the City of
Jerusalem, the Waqf, the builders and UNESCO to discuss the all important
question of movement of structures, which do sit on top of the actual building
site. The International Association of Big Building Movers has also informed us
that there are two companies in the world capable of moving the beautiful Dome
of the Rock, a few hundred meters to the North-Western Corner of the Temple
Mount.

We are now seeking contributors to support the creation of a complete
architectural plan for the Third Temple. The Sanhedrin, (world Jewish Court),
Ateres Kohanim, (the elite training academy of Jewish Priests), and the Temple
Institute, (the center the study and recreation of temple structures and
vessels), have unanimously chosen the firm of Shmuel Balzam of Jerusalem to
undertake the task of recreating the legends of Ezekiel and the Talmud into
modern architectural blueprints. Mr. Balzam is a respected architect in
Jerusalem, with proven ability to work with the Jewish academicians who have
scrupulously studied all that is written about the expected form of the Third
Temple.

Once the architectural plans are completed, we will be going to the
Jerusalem Municipal Authorities to seek a building permit for the Third Temple.
We would be especially honored, at this time, to receive the support of
respected community leaders for this project. Individuals wishing to contribute
can go onto the web site of the Temple Institute;
[url="https://www.templeinstitute.org/donate.htm"]https://www.templeinstitute.org/donate.htm[/url]
and contribute from that platform. It
is essential that you indicate that you want your money going to the Temple
Building fund, and you must click on the contact button, found lower down on the
page, and specify in the contact box that your contribution is to be earmarked
for creation of the architectural plans for the Temple. Contributions can be
made tax deductible in America, upon request.
I thank-you ahead of time for your support for this project
Truly Yours,
Boruch Fishman
Director of People for a Bill to Build the Bet HaMikdash[/quote]

[Veridicus]

I just don't see why Christ would anymore need sacrificial offering from Rabbinical Judaism...didn't Paul state pretty explicitly that their priesthood had been supplanted by the High Priesthood of Christ himself? I do not think Jesus is constrained in any way by the political struggles of the Middle East. While it is terrible that Modern Jews do not have freedom for the full expression of religion, it must be stated that from the Christian perspective their sacrificial practices would ultimately be in vain.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1818600' date='Mar 28 2009, 03:16 PM']I just don't see why Christ would anymore need sacrificial offering from Rabbinical Judaism...didn't Paul state pretty explicitly that their priesthood had been supplanted by the High Priesthood of Christ himself? I do not think Jesus is constrained in any way by the political struggles of the Middle East. While it is terrible that Modern Jews do not have freedom for the full expression of religion, it must be stated that from the Christian perspective their sacrificial practices would ultimately be in vain.[/quote]
My thoughts exactly.

[tate4242]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1818600' date='Mar 28 2009, 11:16 AM']I just don't see why Christ would anymore need sacrificial offering from Rabbinical Judaism...didn't Paul state pretty explicitly that their priesthood had been supplanted by the High Priesthood of Christ himself? I do not think Jesus is constrained in any way by the political struggles of the Middle East. While it is terrible that Modern Jews do not have freedom for the full expression of religion, it must be stated that from the Christian perspective their sacrificial practices would ultimately be in vain.[/quote]

Hi Veridicus: I truly thank you for expressing your opinion on this challenging question. I absolutely LOVE this comment by you: [quote]"While it is terrible that Modern Jews do not have freedom for the full expression of religion,"[/quote](Veridicus)

Since I am not yet Catholic I guess I must be a Protestant so I personally feel deep guilt and regret for the ways in which we Protestants set the stage even for the holocaust itself. It seems to me that a guilt as deep as ours deserves some sort of apology that should take the ultimate form as a high high level of appreciation for the fact that the covenant given to the Jewish people, is still actually in effect and can have tangible results such as the giving of rain in due season, tremendous longevity, victory in warfare or a stable economy!

[url="http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html"]http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...er_on_Jews.html[/url]

[quote][size=3]What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:


First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them[/size].[/quote](Protestant Reformer Martin Luther)

I've gotten into this subject over on the official Christian Heritage Party message board and some topics have came up that do relate to all Catholics. I also would love to see a more Catholic flavour in some of the comments on this topic if any of you have some extra time?

"Should Jews have support to build their Third Temple?"
[url="http://cv.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=11183#11183"]http://cv.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=11183#11183[/url]

[tate4242]

After I began a facebook discussion on this topic Mr. Boruch Fishman himself gave this reply regarding an inter-faith miracle that he had personally witnessed. To me this gives evidence that the restoration of rain in due season to the land of Israel directly relates to Christians supporting Jewish freedom to offer sacrifices:

[quote]Hi,

I wrote the letter about the Efforts to create architectural plans for the 3rd Temple, and a friend of Denis asked me to enter a comment here. Let me say, first off, that I am an Orthodox Jew, yet, at the same time, I was involved in an interfaith miracle in Baltimore, which is under investigation by the Archdiocese in Baltimore. The miracle and its sequel convinced me that the founder of Catholicism Yoshuah in Hebrew supports his fellow Jews, not to worship him, but to do commandments connected to Israel, including the rebuilding of the Temple.

[b]In 1999, there was a terrible drought in Baltimore, and I went to the Rabbis to determine the proper prayer. After I said the prayer, I had the feeling that I had just talked on the phone to a deceased Roman Catholic named Alfredo DeLeonardo. Alfredo had been blessed by Pope John XXIII that he and his children would go to Heaven for 7 generations. Alfred's daughter converted to Orthodox Judaism, and as a result I had a chance to talk with Alfred, on the telephone, one time before he died. I had a personal experience on the day of Alfred's death, which convinced me that he had, indeed gone to Heaven. So when I made my prayer, and felt that I had just talked with Alfred, I believed that my prayer and Alfred were in Heaven. I went home and told my roommate to expect rain. He told me that it couldn't rain, because he was moving to New Jersey to study Jewish law, and wouldn't be finished until Friday. He believed that he was involved in a holy avocation, and his books and clothes, the appurtenances to his religious life, wouldn't be ruined by rain during the move. He was so insistent, and the atmosphere was so holy, that I believed G-d would listen to him. So I said, because of you, the State will have to wait until Friday for rain. And that's what happened. The first rain came on Friday, and then it was rain after rain after rain. As the rains continued, I contacted Monsignor Kenny of the Archdiocese court, and he listened to my story and then asked me to send him a copy. The connection with Jesus is obvious in that he passed along the key to Heaven to Peter, and it is obvious from this miracle that the key has been passed along to the modern Popes.[/b]

When I moved to Israel, I was invited to live in a hostel in the Old City of Jerusalem. I asked permission to build a booth in the hostel, as it was several days before our festival of the booths, when we pray for rain. The Arab manager told me the hostel, (which sits on property owned by King Abdullah), was religiously neutral and I couldn't build a booth. Besides, he said that he knew if I built a booth it would bring rain, and he, (a merchant on the outdoor market), didn't want rain. His words reminded me of the words of my roommate in Baltimore. I felt a parallel connection to the miracle in Baltimore, and believed that G-d would hold off the rains until this Arab did repentance and let me build a Succoth at that Hostel. That was 4 winters ago. Every winter since then, we have had less than the needed amounts of rain. And now, we have a serious drought in all parts of biblical Israel.

The connection with the Temple is that the prayers for rain during the holiday of Succoth, were commandments given to Jews related to the land of Israel, and they include bring sacrifice on the Temple Mount. We have a tradition in Israel that when the Temple is rebuilt that any nation brining a sacrifice on Succoth at the Temple will be blessed with rain the next year.

I would just like to add 2 other facts. We do not wish to "kick the Moslems off the Temple Mount." My organization calls for preservation of the AL Aksa Mosque, the third most important building to Moslems, which sits on the Southern part of the Temle Mount, and not near the location of the Jewish Temple.

[b]Secondly, this very month is an extremely special time for Jews. Every 28 years, we have a blessing we say for the sun, (not to the sun). This year is only the third time in our entire history that the blessing is being said on the day before Passover. The other two times were during the first redemption of the Jews from Egypt and during the second redemption of the Jews from Babylon. [/b][/quote]

[Resurrexi]

To support the building of the Jewish Temple would support the offering of false worship and vain sacrifices.

[Guest KevinSymonds]

I am sorry but I can not disagree with you any more strenuously in saying that Catholics need to or should support the nation of Israel, especially with regards to the matter of Temple-worship.

I have read many of the arguments against my position. I find that all of the arguments are severely lacking in proper Catholic identity and that Catholics are being emasculated.

If you are willing, I would be glad to share more of my thoughts with you privately but I will not post them here.

-KJS

Edited April 21, 2009 by KevinSymonds

[Seven77]

Tate4242, please check out [url="http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/"]http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/[/url] and get the book by the same name.

I don't understand your title "I Suspect It Is Really Simple, No Third Temple, No Messiah!, All Christians should support Jewish freedom of religion!". Are you referring to the 2nd coming of the Messiah?

[tate4242]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1842008' date='Apr 20 2009, 09:23 PM']Tate4242, please check out [url="http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/"]http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/[/url] and get the book by the same name.

I don't understand your title "I Suspect It Is Really Simple, No Third Temple, No Messiah!, All Christians should support Jewish freedom of religion!". Are you referring to the 2nd coming of the Messiah?[/quote]

Hi Seven77: I may have worded the title in a less than perfect manner, but, my understanding is that in all three religions, in Christianity, in Judaism and even in Islam, all of us believe that Jews offering sacrifices in a restored Third or perhaps Fourth TEmple is something that occurs around the time of what we regard as the Messianic era.

Catholic prophecy on how all of this works out is fascinating but Catholic prophecies would tend to be misunderstood during the dark ages and in my opinion could not be understood until our time period. Judaism actually speaks about two redeemers, two Messiah's, one is termed Moshiach ben David. My theory is that Moshiach ben David is Jesus/Yahushua, but I could even be incorrect about this!

Their predictions about a Moshiach ben Yosef/Ephrayim could fit perfectly with what Catholics understand is to be accomplished by the last Elijah. Then again it would be difficult to be dogmatic even about this.

Islamic prophecy talks about a Jesus of Islam who also comes on the scene at the time that Jews are freely offering sacrifices in their restored Third TEmple.

Just about the only thing that Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Moslems agree on is that around the time period that we would generally call the Millennium or Messianic era, Jews are able to worship freely in their restored Temple mount area.

Now that Pope Benedict has called for a two state solution the formula gets even more interesting. Two months ago I would have disagreed with his Holiness on this issue. As of the last two weeks I read an article that in my opinion alters the formula and makes a two state solution vastly more practical. I am a firm believer that the scripture cannot be broken! God promised that he would draw the lost tribes back to the area of Israel. Upwards of eighty percent of Palestinians are GENETICALLY CLOSER TO THE JEWISH POPULATION than to Arabs!!!

His Holiness Pope Benedict is correct! A two state solution is indeed possible and giving the Jewish people their ultimate freedom of religious expression as well as a vastly decreased level of hostility will play a role in how events in Israel will work out.

It is imperative to keep in mind though that the more that all of us pray for he peace of Jerusalem the more smoothly all these events can work out!


[quote][size=4]The theory was originally developed by David Ben Gurion, Israel's first Prime Minister. But it has gained a new lease of life since a study into a rare blood disorder shared by Jews and Palestinians revealed a closer genetic match between the communities than between Palestinians and other Arabs.[/size] “It's all a tragic mistake, a tragic misunderstanding,” said Misinai, who divides his time between tracking down Palestinians who acknowledge their Jewish heritage, and lobbying ministers, ambassadors, religious leaders and activists in both communities.

His relentless pursuit echoes the work, more than a century ago, of Theodor Herzl, the spiritual founder of modern Zionism, who petitioned emperors, sultans and politicians for the creation of a Jewish homeland - which for a while was slated to be set up in British-run Uganda.

“[b]It takes time for people to get used to the idea. Assume that you are brought up to think that this is your enemy, and they are brought up to think that we are the enemy. And telling them now, this is a mistake, we are brothers[/b],” said Misinai, a portly 62-year-old with a brown goatee and boundless energy. He admits that it could take decades for the communities to come to terms with his “revolutionary” theory, but he takes comfort from Ben Gurion's saying: “In Israel, in order to be a realist you must believe in miracles.”

Instead of waiting for his own miracle, Misinai is enlisting an increasing number of Israelis and Palestinians. He has already recruited some unlikely supporters, from a Fatah official, to the secretary of the Sanhedrin, a council of 200 rabbis based on the biblical rulers of Jerusalem. Misinai has also taken his idea to at least one Israeli Government minister, who expressed interest but asked not to be identified. According to his theory, when Jewish fighters waged a series of unsuccessful campaigns against the occupying Roman forces in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD, the Romans exacted a heavy price: they destroyed the temple in Jerusalem and exiled the vast majority of Jews.

Those who ended up in the Diaspora - mostly city dwellers - were determined to keep their Jewish identities during exile. But according to Misinai, many were allowed to stay behind to work the fertile uplands of Judea and Samaria - now known as the West Bank - to supply Rome with grain and olive oil.

[b]Gradually, these people lost their ethnic identities, converting first to Christianity under Byzantine rule and then to Islam, as power in the land changed hands and rulers sought to homogenise the population, either through force or the offer of social privilege and tax incentives. [/b]

“We, the Jewish people, have kept our Israeli or Jewish identity by the book, by our religion, but we disengaged from the country,” said Elon Yarden, a lawyer and close associate of Misinai, who has also written on the subject. Those who stayed behind, in what became Palestine, “did not leave the country, but lost their identity”. (James Hider, A Tragic Misunderstanding, UKonline[/quote]

[tate4242]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1841549' date='Apr 20 2009, 04:42 PM']To support the building of the Jewish Temple would support the offering of false worship and vain sacrifices.[/quote]

No Resurrexi, I must disagree!

I do appreciate your expressing your opinion on this question but I am afraid that Jesus was absolutely correct when he stated something to the effect that "the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." We Christians have very very little comprehension of the absolute brilliance of the Mosaic covenant if it had actually ever been kept. The Ruach Ha Kodesh, the Holy Spirit is about to be poured out on ALL FLESH!!! Would ALL FLESH include the Jews and Levites who survive the coming problems and live into the Messianic era?

Ofcourse.

When Jews are filled with the Holy Spirit they will be able to actually observe the Mosaic law much as Jesus himself observed it. Perfectly! The weakest Jew will be stronger than King David and the least Christian willl be greater than John the Baptist. That is the era that you and I are now entering!

And wait until you and I see what God has planned to do with His Moslems!!!!!

Jesus said that we were geniuses and slow of heart to believe in ALL THAT THE PROPHETS HAVE SPOKEN!

Every word in Ezekiel regarding the Third or Fourth Temple Mount complex MUST BE FULFILLED!!!!

I have a suspicion that the Ezekiel temple complex is actually a fourth temple though, not really a Third one.

[Marie-Therese]

Tate,

I open by stating that I unequivocally support the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. I believe that as Catholics and Christians we should respect the people that God has chosen as His own.

I know that feelings run deep in this area, but I support the building of the temple. Not, as Resurrexi indicated, that false worship would be propagated. My hope is that if the Jewish nation is called into rediscovering the meaning of the Mosaic law, that through obedience to the covenant God made with that people, that the Ruach Ha Kodesh (Breath of God) would descend upon them and open their eyes to the truth of the fullness of prophecy that has been revealed to them in the person of the Messiah. Jesus Himself said that not one jot or tittle of the law would pass away, and that He was not the termination of, but the fullfillment of the law. God has no need of sacrifices...therefore the sacrificial aspect of the temple would not garner any favor with God. Instead, my hope is that returning to the covenant of Moses would open all Jews to the truth of revealed prophecy, which is Jesus the Christ.

Those of us who are Gentiles never were called or required to keep Mosaic statues outside the commandments, only those which are mentioned in Acts by the first action of a group of bishops...namely the prohibitions against consuming blood, that which was strangled or sacrificed to idols, or inappropriate marriages. However, to my knowledge there was never a release of those who were both Jew and Christian from keeping the covenant of Moses. Jesus Himself did so. If I err on this point, I beg someone to correct me. I am by no means a scholar. These are all simply opinions.

Perhaps it is foolish of me to think these things, but I believe that the Lord will redeem His people, and I cannot think that Jews being obedient to the covenant of Moses is a bad thing. Perhaps I am naive. The Lord can work in any way He pleases. I do not discount His power to do so. I always remember the conversion of Paul.

Praise be Jesus Christ, now and forever!

[tate4242]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' post='1867234' date='May 14 2009, 01:45 PM']Tate,

I open by stating that I unequivocally support the nation of Israel and the Jewish people. I believe that as Catholics and Christians we should respect the people that God has chosen as His own.

...
Perhaps it is foolish of me to think these things, but I believe that the Lord will redeem His people, and I cannot think that Jews being obedient to the covenant of Moses is a bad thing. Perhaps I am naive. The Lord can work in any way He pleases. I do not discount His power to do so. I always remember the conversion of Paul.

Praise be Jesus Christ, now and forever![/quote]

Hi Marie-Therese:

I am extremely impressed and encouraged by your comments! Thank you immensely for expressing your very encouraging opinions on this controversial subject!

I think you may be encouraged by the near death experience account of Howard Storm who was shown that the Messianic era was being set up over the next two centuries:

[url="http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html"]http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html[/url]

[quote]Howard's light being friends told him more about the new world to come. According to them, God wished to usher in the kingdom within the next two hundred years. In order to do so, God had rescinded some of the free will given to creatures, in favor of more divine control over human events. This new world order, according to Howard, will resemble some near-death descriptions of heaven. People will live in such peace and harmony and love that communication will be telepathic, travel instantaneous and the need for clothing and shelter eliminated. The lion will indeed lie down with the lamb.][/quote]

[Dennis Tate]

[quote name='Veridicus' timestamp='1238253417' post='1818600']
I just don't see why Christ would anymore need sacrificial offering from Rabbinical Judaism...didn't Paul state pretty explicitly that their priesthood had been supplanted by the High Priesthood of Christ himself? I do not think Jesus is constrained in any way by the political struggles of the Middle East. While it is terrible that Modern Jews do not have freedom for the full expression of religion, it must be stated that from the Christian perspective their sacrificial practices would ultimately be in vain.
[/quote]


This is an interesting angle on this subject Veridicus....I disagree for many reasons but one of them is that the Davidic Covenant is still in force and effect and at this time I believe that Rabbi Jesus is in the process of raising up the Tabernacle of King David. I wonder if King David could be back here in a similar manner to how John the Baptist was somehow Elijah???!!!

If you do a search for the names Anne Frank and Barbro Karlen at the same time you will run into some fascinating information that may be relevant to this topic of how exactly King DAvid is raised up for his people!

[Dennis Tate]

[quote name='Resurrexi' timestamp='1240260134' post='1841549']
To support the building of the Jewish Temple would support the offering of false worship and vain sacrifices.
[/quote]


Do you think that the spending of $30 billion or so by us Canadians at "Christmas" time is less of a vain sacrifice???!!!

[Dennis Tate]

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1240277014' post='1842008']
Tate4242, please check out [url="http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/"]http://www.salvationisfromthejews.com/[/url] and get the book by the same name.

I don't understand your title "I Suspect It Is Really Simple, No Third Temple, No Messiah!, All Christians should support Jewish freedom of religion!". Are you referring to the 2nd coming of the Messiah?
[/quote]

Yes...but Judaism teaches about two Messiahs which could fit perfectly with King DAvid being raised up for the Jewish people whereas Rabbi Jesus also comes back for his own people. You can search for the Jewish ideas on this by using the terms Moshiach ben Yosef or Messiah son of Joseph as well as Moshiach ben David.