Catholic Churches Position On Divorce?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Dave' post='1818252' date='Mar 27 2009, 09:47 PM']Actually, if 2 non-Catholics Christians or 2 non-Christians got married in a civil ceremony or registry office, said marriage, while not sacramental, may indeed be valid. It's only when a Catholic is marrying in a civil or other non-Catholic ceremony without the necessary dispensations that such a marriage would be invalid due to lack of form.[/quote]

You're right. When a remarried couple is trying to get their marriage blessed by the church, it is often the Protestant spouse's former marriage that is the difficulty. We don't hold them to the same standards as we do Catholics.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:26 PM']Not everyone gets married in the Church or takes vows "before God". Many people get married in registry offices or civil ceremonies. Many people who get married are not baptised - in any church! These marriages are not valid in the eyes of the Church, especially if one or both of the parties are not Catholics (or even baptised Christians)! These marriages can be annuled due to a "lack of form".[/quote]

I was down in Mexico in February -- on a "Singles Serving Orphans" mission, which is Catholic -- and the Sunday Mass that we attended included a wedding. The priest explained that the couple already had a civil marriage (So they had already made commitments to each other), but now they were getting married in the Catholic church to make the marriage valid.

But why would the Catholic church have to "annul" a civil marriage -- where no vows were taken?

[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:26 PM']The reason why people get annulments is many and varied, and it seems that instead of worrying about whether or not some people might be "abusing the system", it would be good to practice a little charity and understanding. No one is perfect, and the Church provides annulments because she sees a need to do so -- for many reasons. Just as sometimes a religious might be released from their vows, sometimes married people are released from their vows through annulment.[/quote]

Nah, I don't agree with everything that the Catholic church, or the members in it do. I suppose I could pretend to -- but then I'd be setting a bad example.



[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:26 PM']The best prevention for divorces and/or annulments is really good preparation before marriage. I know one couple who were required to go to marriage education before they got married in the Church, but they paid another couple to do it for them because they couldn't be bothered going! No surprise that their marriage is having a lot of trouble right now! Prevention is better than cure![/quote]

I wonder about that. I tend to think that church approved "annulments" make people feel that divorce is a reasonable way to solve a problem in their marriage -- rather than going into counceling and working on keeping the marriage together. It seems that people who divorce once -- divorce again and again.

I remember a Priest -- back in the early eighties -- praising the Catholic church for granting more annulments. My mom didn't like it. Has divorce increased in the Catholic since annulments became easier?

Edited March 28, 2009 by southern california guy

[Veridicus]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 27 2009, 10:58 PM']But why would the Catholic church have to "annul" a civil marriage -- where no vows were taken?[/quote]

The Church honors the validity of civil marriages between non-catholic men and women; thus if a divorced non-catholic desires to marry within the Church, their previous marriage must be annulled because it is assumed to be valid until examination has proven otherwise. This was the case with my stepdad who was married in a Methodist Church, divorced, and was going to remarry my mom.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Veridicus

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1818366' date='Mar 27 2009, 10:02 PM']The Church honors the validity of civil marriages between non-catholic men and women; thus if a divorced non-catholic desires to marry within the Church, their previous marriage must be annulled because it is assumed to be valid until examination has proven otherwise. This was the case with my stepdad who was married in a Methodist Church, divorced, and was going to remarry my mom.[/quote]

Why? Why does the Catholic church consider a civil marriage between two non-Catholics as "valid", but not a civil marriage between two Catholics?

Are we actually talking about a church (non-Catholic) wedding where vows WERE taken? Like the case with your stepdad who was married in the Methodist Church. At least that makes more sense to me.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818376' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:10 PM']Why? Why does the Catholic church consider a civil marriage between two non-Catholics as "valid", but not a civil marriage between two Catholics?[/quote]

I am not the most educated person to answer that to be honest; you ought to post that question in the "Question & Answers about Catholicism" thread.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818376' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:10 PM']Are we actually talking about a church (non-Catholic) wedding where vows WERE taken? Like the case with your stepdad who was married in the Methodist Church. At least that makes more sense to me.[/quote]

In the case of non-catholic Christians, the Catholic Church recognizes the validity of their marriages. Which is why the annullment process is necessary.

Please try to keep an open mind as you ask questions and receive answers...I had issues with the whole process myself after my parents divorced...but after asking enough questions and really thinking and praying about it, it started to make sense. The seeming "red tape" on the marriage issue enacted within the Catholic Church really speaks volumes about how serious the Church takes her sacraments and how she takes Christ's word seriously. My "signature" here on phatmass is Ephesians 5; Paul quotes Genesis where it says "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Christ uses the "lifelong" committment of marriage as an image of his mysterious relationship with the Church; this theme is revisted in Revelations 19. Marriage is a very permanent thing which Christ chose as an image of his love for the Church. So the Church doesn't want to frivolously give its approval to divorce and remarriage; hence the annullment process. It must be determined that something prevented one or both of the couple to consent validly to the marriage; if it cannot be demonstrated that there was an impediment...then it WAS a valid marriage and there will be no annullment. Have there been abuses and excesses in distribution of annullments? Of course. But this in no way delegitimatizes the necessity of the process nor the Church's responsibility in guarding the Sacraments.

Peace,

Todd

Edited March 28, 2009 by Veridicus

[CatherineM]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818376' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:10 PM']Why? Why does the Catholic church consider a civil marriage between two non-Catholics as "valid", but not a civil marriage between two Catholics?[/quote]


To those who have been given more, more is expected. Catholics are required to be married, in church before a priest. That's one of the rules of being a Catholic. We are expected to follow the rules of our church, but it would be silly to expect those who are not Catholic to follow our church rules about marriage.

[Veridicus]

"What you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; and what you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven"...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818118' date='Mar 27 2009, 09:50 PM']It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it! [/quote]

You can't fool God, but you can fool yourself, your fiance/spouse, a priest, and virtually everyone who isn't God. There isn't a magical formula to reading God's mind, so we have an annulment process to use the knowledge we have from Christ about the sacrament of marriage to determine if a specific marriage was valid or not.

You probably missed my last post on this topic... the overarching idea is that God is gracious and he works with us in our failings. This is why it is possible for an ordained man to be laicized if he decides to marry, or simply discerns that priesthood is not his vocation. Diocesan priests can join a religious order, just as religious priests can leave their order to become diocesan. Sisters can leave and join orders, or form their own order (like Blessed Mother Theresa and Fr. Benedict Groeschel). Like Abraham, we don't know what God has planned from the first step we begin following him... we just follow one step at a time and when we misstep -- if we are humble -- he gets us back on the right track.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']But why would the Catholic church have to "annul" a civil marriage -- where no vows were taken?[/quote]

If no vows were taken, there wouldn't be an annulment. It would be declared invalid. A friend of mine had this done pretty easily because her ex-husband wasn't baptized. Valid marriage requires both the man and woman to be baptized, so if that isn't the case, it's easy to declare that invalid.

That said, the pain of separation remains just as real, so spiritual and psychological healing are still necessary to continue in life as a healthier Christian.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']Nah, I don't agree with everything that the Catholic church, or the members in it do. I suppose I could pretend to -- but then I'd be setting a bad example.[/quote]

Don't pretend... we have enough of that in society as it is Seek and pray to be open and always considering the gift Christ has for you through his Church, but don't pretend like it's being imposed upon you. You must receive it freely if you receive it at all.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']I wonder about that. I tend to think that church approved "annulments" make people feel that divorce is a reasonable way to solve a problem in their marriage -- rather than going into counceling and working on keeping the marriage together. It seems that people who divorce once -- divorce again and again.[/quote]

Prayer and counseling should be fully exhausted, of course. A faithful and sincere annulment process will put a stop to that cycle, but many people use annulment as a mechanical process that gets what they want. Of course, the second time around it's far less likely to be approved. Catherine would know more about than me.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818361' date='Mar 28 2009, 12:58 AM']I remember a Priest -- back in the early eighties -- praising the Catholic church for granting more annulments. My mom didn't like it. Has divorce increased in the Catholic since annulments became easier?[/quote]

It goes both ways. We live in a rich, stubborn, spoiled society and Catholics are no different. Since civil divorce is easier, people are more likely to enter marriage without discerning it carefully, and that makes it more likely they'll take vows just to get "married." You should find, though, that the Church is less flexible in granting annulments than the courthouse is at granting a civil divorce/annulment. It's not perfect, but then, are any of us perfect?

Edited March 28, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Dave]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1818844' date='Mar 28 2009, 07:36 PM']Valid marriage requires both the man and woman to be baptized, so if that isn't the case, it's easy to declare that invalid.[/quote]

Wrong! [b]Sacramental[/b] marriage requires both the man and the woman to be baptized. Even if one or both parties aren't baptized, the marriage could still very well be valid, albeit a natural rather than sacramental marriage.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Dave' post='1818847' date='Mar 28 2009, 07:42 PM']Wrong! [b]Sacramental[/b] marriage requires both the man and the woman to be baptized. Even if one or both parties aren't baptized, the marriage could still very well be valid, albeit a natural rather than sacramental marriage.[/quote]

Thank you... I think...

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Dave' post='1818847' date='Mar 28 2009, 05:42 PM']Wrong! [b]Sacramental[/b] marriage requires both the man and the woman to be baptized. Even if one or both parties aren't baptized, the marriage could still very well be valid, albeit a natural rather than sacramental marriage.[/quote]

So natural marriages where one or both are unbaptized do not necessitate an annullment?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Veridicus' post='1819518' date='Mar 29 2009, 10:42 AM']So natural marriages where one or both are unbaptized do not necessitate an annullment?[/quote]

The only reason unbaptized individuals would care about receiving a Catholic annulment, is if one later became baptized. Then, Canon Law gets very complicated. There are even rules about how to handle a person with several spouses who later gets baptized.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1818844' date='Mar 28 2009, 04:36 PM']If no vows were taken, there wouldn't be an annulment. It would be declared invalid.[/quote]
In the Byzantine tradition the Mystery of Crowning does not involve an exchange of vows.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1819599' date='Mar 29 2009, 01:01 PM']In the Byzantine tradition the Mystery of Crowning does not involve an exchange of vows.[/quote]

Please expound a bit, if you would. The differences in diction...