Catholic Churches Position On Divorce?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1817723' date='Mar 27 2009, 08:50 AM']The church doesn't have "church approved divorces", an annulment means you lack the legal or moral capacity to get married - that is NOT a divorce. Marriage or annulments are not decided by money - in fact if you have no money the church will pay the lawyer fees for the annulment. They are not the same, so kindly do not equate them.[/quote]

I think of it like this: when babies are born, they are given a birth certificate. This is the legal recognition of a person's birth. When that child is baptized, certain requirements are needed: valid Trinitarian form and water. If at some point in the child's life it is discovered that iced tea was used and the baptizer merely proclaimed "I baptize you, Cutey Patooty," the Church would declare that that person was not validly baptized. This does not negate the birth or the birth certificate, merely that sacrament is not valid. Likewise, a marriage has certain requirements in order to be valid: intentions to be faithful, entering into it freely, open to life, etc. If it is determined that one or more of the conditions for marriage were not met at the time of the marriage, it is deemed invalid. This has nothing really to do with the legal state of marriage. The Church acknowledges that people are legally married outside of the Church just as she recognizes that people are born without benefit of baptism.

[scardella]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1817560' date='Mar 26 2009, 10:57 PM']So what is the Catholic churches official position on divorce? (Not to be confused with an annulled marriage).[/quote]

Valid consummated marriages are absolutely indissoluble. Invalid marriages can be annulled. Valid non-consummated marriages can be dissolved in certain circumstances. Civil divorce is permitted for extraordinary reasons, eg abuse. Civil divorce does not allow for remarriage because it is a civil thing and does not affect the nature.

Marriage, by its nature, is a permanent thing. It involves the irrevocable commitment of self to another. This permanent commitment is a necessary bond for the proper environment to raise children. On a biological level, the consummation of a marriage creates neuro-chemical changes that emotionally bond you to your marriage partner. When you break those bonds through infidelity, fornication, or serial polygamy (divorce and remarriage), later bonds become progressively weaker. This is why you wind up having people who seem to get married and divorced every several years, eg Elizabeth Taylor.

[quote]Divorcee's aren't allowed to remarry in the Catholic church. Why not? What is the explanation for the Catholic churches position? What is the position of someone who's divorced -- in the Catholic church?

And finally digressing back to the question of annullments. What are the rules for annulling marriages? If one partner is supposedly abusive of the other -- do both partners get an annullment? Are annullments passed out too easily these days? And do you personally consider an annullment different from a divorce (I have to confess I don't really..).[/quote]

Annulling marriages means that the marriage was void in the first place. There are certain impediments to marriage, eg impotence, being related, etc., and flaws with consent. The latter is where most annulments happen. Both bride and groom must give full consent to what marriage actually is. It is a free, total, faithful, fruitful love. (Thank you, Christopher West!)

Marriage must be free. It must not be constrained by undue outside pressure, eg shotgun weddings, sometimes pregnancy, sometimes even cultural expectations such as arranged marriages. You also must understand what you are consenting to.

Marriage must be total. It understands that this is a lifelong commitment, that it bonds you to your spouse for life. You commit to living as one.

Marriage must be faithful. This goes hand in hand with total. Marriage is completely exclusive to one man and one woman. Of course this precludes affairs. However, it is greater than that. The spouses give the marriage and the other priority over all except God. This includes the spouses' parents, the spouses' children. They must also guard against emotional infidelity, eg too intimate an emotional relationship with, say, a friend, esp. of the opposite sex, where it damages the marriage.

Marriage must be fruitful. This means primarily that they must be open to the begetting and education of children. Fundamentally, this is saying, I want more people like you to exist in this world. I want our ancestry to be inextricably linked for all of future history. The union that the couple experiences is most profoundly expressed in the child. For the sterile couple, this usually means adoption if possible, but the couple must express fruitfulness in some way to really fulfill the vocation to marriage.

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' post='1817721' date='Mar 27 2009, 01:27 PM']It's not about $$$. That is a common idea but it's just not true. It does not matter how much money you have when going before the tribunal. You may have heard people complain about it like that "Oh the Catholic Church wouldn't give me an anullment b/c I wasn't rich enough" but the real reason is they did NOT have a good enough case. They don't want to admit that so they make out like it is a money issue.[/quote]


It has happened though. I'm not saying it happens a lot, but it has.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1817733' date='Mar 27 2009, 10:18 AM']Is it possible to get a divorce and then an annulment? Because if a divorce ends the marriage legally, it still recognizes that it existed/was valid. If you get a divorce and then a few years later seek an annulment, when your case is reviewed they will see that you had a divorce, which indicates that you acknowledged the marriage as valid.[/quote]
You are required by the church to have the legal divorce before you start the annulment process.
A divorce is the end of a marriage only in a legal sense, it has nothing to do with what the church's ruling on the validity of the marriage.

[StColette]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1817814' date='Mar 27 2009, 01:01 PM']It has happened though. I'm not saying it happens a lot, but it has.[/quote]


Do we have proof of it happening? I would be cautious about saying such things in a matter of fact way. Unless we have proof of it happening, I don't believe we should going around saying that the Church lets this take place.

[Aloysius]

If it were about money, Henry VIII would've been granted an annulment. The Catholic Church pretty much lost all of England because she refused to compromise on what is required to receive an annulment. If she's willing to lose England, I think she's willing to lose people that give hundreds of thousands of dollars to her per year, if they don't have a legitimate case. rich people get rejected for annulments just as much as poor people do.

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='StColette' post='1817834' date='Mar 27 2009, 07:06 PM']Do we have proof of it happening? I would be cautious about saying such things in a matter of fact way. Unless we have proof of it happening, I don't believe we should going around saying that the Church lets this take place.[/quote]

The person himself openly admits it. My mum's friend was told by him that if he gave a certain amount he would see that she got an annulment. She didn't do it of course.

I'm not saying that this goes on everywhere, for all I know this man could be the only person in the world doing it.

Edited March 27, 2009 by Noel's angel

[Aloysius]

annulments are not infallible. when one honestly and openly pursues the process with the right intention and the Church tells them that their previous marriage did not actually take place, then God will not consider that person to have committed adultery if they remarry even if the annulment was an errant one, because the person did it in good faith and has no culpability... but anyone who pursues an annulment through any underhanded means and therefore knows that their marriage would not actually qualify for annulment by the Church's standards, that person commits adultery by contracting another marriage and will be treated that way in the last judgment.

the type of simony described above will be another damnable sin by both parties to it to be explained before the Lord on the Day of Doom.

the annulment process is a way of trusting the Church and the Apostles (Bishops) of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the dispensation of the sacraments; it is up to them to determine whether or not a true sacrament of matrimony had been confected in you in the marriage you are seeking to annul. If they do not find cause to say it was not a true sacrament, then you live out your life according to that judgment. For the sins they retain are retained, the sins they forgive are forgiven, and whatsoever they bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven... so says Our Lord of the powers of His Apostles, the Bishops.

[CatherineM]

If money or power really made that much of a difference in whether an annulment would be given, Joseph Kennedy's annulment wouldn't have been overturned. The local tribunal only makes the original declaration. It is then reviewed by the Roman Rota before the big guy stamps his ring on it.

[Noel's angel]

Right I think this is getting off track. It happens (or at least has happened). But that isn't really the point of this thread.

[Dave]

It seems like so many Catholics seem to think that it's OK to divorce just so long as you don't remarry (unless you get an annulment). However, divorce in and of itself, even without the intent to remarry, can be mortally sinful (assuming that the marriage in question is valid). Let me make it clear that I am NOT referring to those marriages that end due to serious reasons such as abuse, addictions, or repeated and unrepentant adultery. But in today's society, it seems that many, many divorces (even among Catholics) happen because of mere unhappiness, boredom, financial problems, "growing apart," etc. Once upon a time it used to be the case where a bishop had to give permission for a validly married couple merely to separate, be it temporarily or permanently! So it stands to reason that you had to have a STRONG reason for wanting to separate!

[southern california guy]

I never knew much about annulments, but from what I've read it sounds like they're nonsense. What is this nonsense about "intentions"? Could somebody explain it simply and clearly, and give an example?

It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it!

Can people who were married and had children get an annulment? Do their children become bastards after the anulment -- since there was "never really a marriage"? And are single guys supposed to pretend that women who were married and got a divorce and an annulment -- are the same as women who never married and had sex with their husband??

[CatherineM]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818118' date='Mar 27 2009, 07:50 PM']I never knew much about annulments, but from what I've read it sounds like they're nonsense. What is this nonsense about "intentions"? Could somebody explain it simply and clearly, and give an example?

It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it!

Can people who were married and had children get an annulment? Do their children become bastards after the anulment -- since there was "never really a marriage"? And are single guys supposed to pretend that women who were married and got a divorce and an annulment -- are the same as women who never married and had sex with their husband?? [/quote]

You seem to want to paint the church as being involved in some kind of dastardly hypocrisy. In dealing with people whose relationship has broken, we should approach them with compassion, and without judgment. People often think that it is the marriage certificate that gets a divorced Catholic in trouble with the church (my father included). It isn't the paperwork, it is the sex. Someone who is divorced and living a celibate life, can be in complete communion with the church. Someone who is divorced, but not remarried, yet in a sexual relationship with someone who is not their original spouse, isn't.

Children born to a couple who's marriage is later annulled are not retro-actively illegitimate. It is one of the most common questions I was asked when working in the tribunal. Legitimate or illegitimate is a civil/legal term, and has nothing to do with the sacrament. The church isn't in the business of making innocent children illegitimate.

There are many things that can cause a marriage to never have occurred. In Contract Law we have a term called, "meeting of the minds." Without it, a contract isn't valid. Same here with annulments. If one party to a marriage promises to raise their children Catholic, but isn't intending to go through with the promise, then they have enticed their spouse into marriage based on a falsehood. If that innocent spouse had known their true intentions, they may well not have gone through with the marriage.

Before making a life time commitment, we are entitled to know what we are getting into. Someone under the influence of drugs, alcohol or even some active mental illnesses, are not capable of understanding the commitment they are making. These types of things mean that a true meeting of the minds of the spouses never happened, and a true sacramental bond didn't occur. It is the same as someone being baptized in the name of the Redeemer rather than in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It isn't a valid sacrament.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1818118' date='Mar 27 2009, 06:50 PM']It seems to me that if you took vows to god. Then you took REAL vows to god!!!! Or can people fool god? Or maybe there isn't really a god so none of it really matters anyway? So why do people bother with annulments? I would think that god is fairly smart and would know if the original vows were REAL or FAKE Is it mainly so that the divorcee can remarry within the church? It is, isn't it! [/quote]

Not everyone gets married in the Church or takes vows "before God". Many people get married in registry offices or civil ceremonies. Many people who get married are not baptised - in any church! These marriages are not valid in the eyes of the Church, especially if one or both of the parties are not Catholics (or even baptised Christians)! These marriages can be annuled due to a "lack of form".

The reason why people get annulments is many and varied, and it seems that instead of worrying about whether or not some people might be "abusing the system", it would be good to practice a little charity and understanding. No one is perfect, and the Church provides annulments because she sees a need to do so -- for many reasons. Just as sometimes a religious might be released from their vows, sometimes married people are released from their vows through annulment.

The best prevention for divorces and/or annulments is really good preparation before marriage. I know one couple who were required to go to marriage education before they got married in the Church, but they paid another couple to do it for them because they couldn't be bothered going! No surprise that their marriage is having a lot of trouble right now! Prevention is better than cure!

[Dave]

[quote name='nunsense' post='1818222' date='Mar 27 2009, 11:26 PM']Not everyone gets married in the Church or takes vows "before God". Many people get married in registry offices or civil ceremonies. Many people who get married are not baptised - in any church! These marriages are not valid in the eyes of the Church, especially if one or both of the parties are not Catholics (or even baptised Christians)! These marriages can be annuled due to a "lack of form".[/quote]

Actually, if 2 non-Catholics Christians or 2 non-Christians got married in a civil ceremony or registry office, said marriage, while not sacramental, may indeed be valid. It's only when a Catholic is marrying in a civil or other non-Catholic ceremony without the necessary dispensations that such a marriage would be invalid due to lack of form.