EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Has anyone read the section about salvation in "The Handbook of Christian Apologetics"? As far as I know, Peter Kreeft is a Catholic, but his thesis about salvation implies that Sola Fide and Catholic beliefs about salvation are different ways for saying the same thing. Any thoughts on this book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 [quote]Has anyone read the section about salvation in "The Handbook of Christian Apologetics"? As far as I know, Peter Kreeft is a Catholic, but his thesis about salvation implies that Sola Fide and Catholic beliefs about salvation are different ways for saying the same thing. Any thoughts on this book?[/quote] It's a very confusing matter... I don't know the book, but the Church says that it is by faith that we are saved, but that works are the manifestation of grace, and so, essentially, we don't truly have faith if we don't do good works. It's like the song..."Faith without works is like a screen door on a submarine..." It's interesting to note that some Lutherans came to an agreement with the Church on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Peter Kreeft is an excellent Catholic apologist, so there is probably a misunderstanding somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce S Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Catholic thought = Faith + Works + Sacrements = Salvation Protestant thought = Faith Alone = Savation ... Works flow FROM faith, but are not a part of the salvation equation. I'm aware of the various scripture "plucking" that can be done to buttress both sides, but the ENTIRE works of Paul indicate that the Protestant side is what he taugh, James disagreed, but James was not the theologian, but the more earthly, practical, and was in charge of the Jewish congregation, thus, more influenced by the remaining Jewish lingerings of his background, Paul seemed more able to break free, and move beyond those traditions. FWIW, this heretics view on the matter, but what do I know, Cardinal Newman didn't instruct me on the Magisterium, but darn, that man WAS a genius, and if ANYONE deserves Sainthood, it is Newman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 "but the ENTIRE works of Paul indicate that the Protestant side is what he taugh," Nope it doesn't. Paul was arguing against the OT law as a primary means of salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 23 2004, 11:13 AM'] Catholic thought = Faith + Works + Sacrements = Salvation Protestant thought = Faith Alone = Savation ... Works flow FROM faith, but are not a part of the salvation equation. I'm aware of the various scripture "plucking" that can be done to buttress both sides, but the ENTIRE works of Paul indicate that the Protestant side is what he taugh, James disagreed, but James was not the theologian, but the more earthly, practical, and was in charge of the Jewish congregation, thus, more influenced by the remaining Jewish lingerings of his background, Paul seemed more able to break free, and move beyond those traditions. FWIW, this heretics view on the matter, but what do I know, Cardinal Newman didn't instruct me on the Magisterium, but darn, that man WAS a genius, and if ANYONE deserves Sainthood, it is Newman. [/quote] Sorry for going against the topic, but I have a question for Bruce S- As a Pentecostal Protestant where do Gifts of the Spirit come into the Salvation Equation? I went to hear a former Pentecostal Pastor preach and he said the Pentecostal church believed only Protestants - not Catholics or even other non-Charismatic Protestants - baptised in the Holy Spirit were indeed and truly assured of salvation. Does this come into play as Works flowing from Faith Alone? Edited March 23, 2004 by M.SIGGA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 ..."Faith without works is like a screen door on a submarine..." - A favorite Rich Mullins song of mine. What I find fascinating about "Faith Alone" and works being an outpouring of faith, is I cannot find one Baptist Pastor who says someone can get saved and go and live a wordly life. I'll grant you that works are an outpouring of faith, but are "necessary" none-the-less. I see the sacraments not as a "work" of man, but a "work" of God, that man participates in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 23 2004, 11:54 AM'] ..."Faith without works is like a screen door on a submarine..." - A favorite Rich Mullins song of mine. What I find fascinating about "Faith Alone" and works being an outpouring of faith, is I cannot find one Baptist Pastor who says someone can get saved and go and live a wordly life. I'll grant you that works are an outpouring of faith, but are "necessary" none-the-less. I see the sacraments not as a "work" of man, but a "work" of God, that man participates in. [/quote] amen brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livin_the_MASS Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 (edited) [quote]I see the sacraments not as a "work" of man, but a "work" of God, that man participates in. [/quote] WOW!!! You got it brother adam. God gave His Church the Sacraments as visiable participation in the things to come. Like St.Thomas Aqunias wrote, that one day the Sacramental veils will be lifted and we will see one day what are behind those veils Two examples, What will we see when God removes the Sacramental veils of water? St. Thomas wrote that, when we are in heaven at the beatific vision when the Sacramental veils of Water "living water, which signifies the grace of the Holy Spirit" we will see as the glory of the Spirit of God (cf Rev. 22:1, Jn. 7:37-39). Number two The Holy Eucharist St. Thomas wrote that when we our in heaven the Sacramental veils of the Holy Eucharist will be lifted and we will see God as He is. God united Hiimself with man ( in Holy Communion). But only when we get to Heaven the glory of that union will be fully perfected and unveiled to us all. Good job bro. adam keep it up man! God Bless You Hope this helps out a little? Edited March 23, 2004 by Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 [quote name='thedude' date='Mar 22 2004, 09:18 PM'] Has anyone read the section about salvation in "The Handbook of Christian Apologetics"? As far as I know, Peter Kreeft is a Catholic, but his thesis about salvation implies that Sola Fide and Catholic beliefs about salvation are different ways for saying the same thing. Any thoughts on this book? [/quote] I've read Kreeft, and this work in particular. I'd say that he hit the nail right on the head with that assessment on sola fide. Luthers view of 'faith alone' presupposed that the other two theological virtues (the greatest of these being Love, expressing itself through outward works, and Hope) were present alongside faith. Catholic theology makes no such presupposition. As a result, Luther, (according to his presupposition) rightly says that we are justified by that faith, whereas Catholic theology (according to its presuppositions) rightly says that we are not justified by (intellectual) faith alone, but by the three theological virtues working together as one organic unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted March 24, 2004 Author Share Posted March 24, 2004 Thank you for your responses... Speaking of Pentacostals: A former Pentacostal minister visited a local Church. I missed him but he sounded very interesting. Out of his own curiosity, he decided to research the early Church Fathers, and ended up discovering Catholicism. His whole congregation converted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annie Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 dude, very interesting. I am just finishing Peter Kreefts "Catholic Christianity" --well worth a read. Ah, but I have a SIGNED COPY cuz I heard him speak in Batavia IL. He is an amazing man. Worth seeing in person!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 [quote name='thedude' date='Mar 23 2004, 08:12 PM']His whole congregation converted...[/quote] Whoa! That would make an interesting book. I'd read it... but I'm a bibliophile anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 [quote name='thedude' date='Mar 23 2004, 08:12 PM'] Thank you for your responses... Speaking of Pentacostals: A former Pentacostal minister visited a local Church. I missed him but he sounded very interesting. Out of his own curiosity, he decided to research the early Church Fathers, and ended up discovering Catholicism. His whole congregation converted... [/quote] I think we are talking about the same one. I heard him speak at a Conference about a month ago. I believe his name was Alex Jones and he and his whole church converted to the Catholic Faith, like 57 families, along with his whole family. They all entered the Church together. His church congregation was in Detroit. He said it was preached that Catholics are apostate, Baptists and Lutherans weren't saved, Presbyerians were the "Frozen Chosen" and only Christians with Charismatic gifts were truly saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 I believe that is the exact same man. I remember he was from my area (2 hours from Detroit) and his name was Alex. Very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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