Aloysius Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 I know what you were saying, that you think I'm held up as infallible here; the reference to people disagreeing me was proving that no, in fact, I am not. And also, I have often admitted mistakes. Sometimes to some people my arguments are more compelling whereas sometimes to some people yours are more compelling... the respect people have for me here tends to come from a willingness to admit when I'm wrong, attentiveness to the other side, and sometimes to compelling arguments. but I have delved too much into your ad hominem tangent... most of the Christians in Palestine are Arabs and most of them do tend to side against the Israeli state. I speak of "Jews" and "Hebrews" because my argument is against your assertion that there is a BIBLICAL foundation to the existence of Israel. I am saying that, while a Catholic may support Israel, a Catholic should not hold that the land there was given to Israel by God. You know perfectly well that I do not support Israel and that I do not support its founding nor its right to exist as a state, but that's not what I'm arguing against here; I'm arguing here that even if you support its right to exist as a state it shouldn't be because 'God gave that land to the Jews' in Old Testament times, because the Old Covenant has been superseded by the New. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1813480' date='Mar 21 2009, 08:29 PM']people don't treat me as infallible, Madame... some people agree with me and some do not... cmom often agrees with me in threads, she has challenged me on this point... as do most people here. I have no infallibility to speak of, you're just mad that sometimes some people find my arguments more compelling than yours... sorry, but it happens. there are people who find your arguments more compelling than mine on some issues too, things ebb and flow; I claim no infallibility and will always admit to an error when I have found I am wrong (I have done so before on these phorums, something which some people have complemented me on as most people tend to dig in their heels when defeated)[/quote] I'm not challenging you I simply disagree In the Old Testament God gave specific lands to Israelites forever. I see no revelation since that point that changes what God has given. I don't see how the Church can claim differently than Scripture, or can claim that the Scripture is not historical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1813487' date='Mar 21 2009, 08:50 PM']And they are racially AND religiously Jewish, but they are ISRAELIS. It's not my duty to look for quotes for you. Please do your own research. Since you are so convinced of your own argument, one would think you already have something to back it up. Quotes from the Holy Father denying the Israelis their God-given piece of land?[/quote] The Pope supports Israel, and the Israelis and the Palestinians, but he has never stated, to my knowledge, that the Jewish people have a right to the land because God gave it to them. The article on Zionism referred to how no one there had some claim to the land above any of the other people there. that is what I am arguing against here: the idea that God gave the land to the Jews and that the Jews therefore have a claim to it because God gave it to them. That is contrary to a Catholic understanding of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1813493' date='Mar 21 2009, 06:54 PM']I know what you were saying, that you think I'm held up as infallible here; the reference to people disagreeing me was proving that no, in fact, I am not. And also, I have often admitted mistakes. Sometimes to some people my arguments are more compelling whereas sometimes to some people yours are more compelling... the respect people have for me here tends to come from a willingness to admit when I'm wrong, attentiveness to the other side, and sometimes to compelling arguments. but I have delved too much into your ad hominem tangent... most of the Christians in Palestine are Arabs and most of them do tend to side against the Israeli state. I speak of "Jews" and "Hebrews" because my argument is against your assertion that there is a BIBLICAL foundation to the existence of Israel. I am saying that, while a Catholic may support Israel, a Catholic should not hold that the land there was given to Israel by God. You know perfectly well that I do not support Israel and that I do not support its founding nor its right to exist as a state, but that's not what I'm arguing against here; I'm arguing here that even if you support its right to exist as a state it shouldn't be because 'God gave that land to the Jews' in Old Testament times, because the Old Covenant has been superseded by the New.[/quote] God gave Israel to the Jews. THIS is what Catholics are supposed to believe: the Bible. If God didn't give it to them then who did? The man from Mars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1813496' date='Mar 21 2009, 06:56 PM']The Pope supports Israel, and the Israelis and the Palestinians, but he has never stated, to my knowledge, that the Jewish people have a right to the land because God gave it to them. The article on Zionism referred to how no one there had some claim to the land above any of the other people there. that is what I am arguing against here: the idea that God gave the land to the Jews and that the Jews therefore have a claim to it because God gave it to them. That is contrary to a Catholic understanding of scripture.[/quote] Like I said, the Palestinians could have had a state a long time ago, with no interference from Israel. But they chose NOT to. Instead they invaded Israel. They want MORE of Israeli land, to which they are NOT entitled. Furthermore, they want to wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jews into the sea. Jew-hatred by Muslims did NOT start with the so-called "occupation" of "Palestine". It started with Mohammed. It is an inherrently Jew-hating religion. The Jews have a history of 4,000 years in the land of Israel and Muslims have a history of 1,000 years in the locale of Palestine and you're going to tell me Israel should NOT EXIST? Give me a break. The article you posted was NOT suitable to the topic. Period. Zionism is crazy talk about the end times and was cooked up and is perpetuated by fundamentalist Christians. It has nothing to do with the topic. Edited March 22, 2009 by Madame Vengier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 God did give it to the Jews in the Old Covenant, which has been transformed into the New Covenant in which the Church is the new Israel; the Jews are offered the Church as their Israel along with all of the other nations; and they have no special divine claim to any geographical location presently on the basis of scripture in a Catholic understanding. from the anti-Christian-Zionism article: "We further reject the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizations with elements in the governments of Israel and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral preemptive borders and domination over Palestine... The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the Separation Wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermine the viability of a Palestinian state as well as peace and security in the entire region." these statements would be contrary to scripture if we considered that the entire land there was given to the Jewish people; but the Church does not consider those proscriptions of the Old Covenant to be in force; God fulfills his promise to Israel by what He does for the Church, which is that He has given it dominion over the whole world under the new Davidic Kingdom of Christ... the land of Palestine does not belong to the Jewish people any more than it belongs to the Palestinian people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1813500' date='Mar 21 2009, 09:03 PM']Like I said, the Palestinians could have had a state a long time ago, with no interference from Israel. But they chose NOT to. Instead they invaded Israel. They want MORE of Israeli land, to which they are NOT entitled. Furthermore, they want to wipe Israel off the map and drive the Jews into the sea. Jew-hatred by Muslims did NOT start with the so-called "occupation" of "Palestine". It started with Mohammed. It is an inherrently Jew-hating religion. The Jews have a history of 4,000 years in the land of Israel and Muslims have a history of 1,000 years in the locale of Palestine and you're going to tell me Israel should NOT EXIST? Give me a break. The article you posted was NOT suitable to the topic. Period. Zionism is crazy talk about the end times and was cooked up and is perpetuated by fundamentalist Christians. It has nothing to do with the topic.[/quote] Zionism refers to the idea that the Jews have a divine right to the land in Israel, it has no NECESSARY eschatological aspects, though it is sometimes associated with protestant eschatological beliefs "Zionism is the national revival movement of the Jewish people. It holds that the Jews have the right to self-determination in their own national home, and the right to develop their national culture. Historically, Zionism strove to create a legally recognized national home for the Jews in their historical homeland. This goal was implemented by the creation of the State of Israel. Today, Zionism supports the existence of the state of Israel and helps to inspire a revival of Jewish national life, culture and language. " [url="http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_definitions.htm"]http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_definitions.htm[/url] nor does Christian Zionism, though it is stereotyped that way, it does not necessarily refer to eschatology: "Christian Zionism 1. In general - support for Israel and Zionism among Christians. 2. Support for restoration of the Jews based on Christian religious doctrine. 3. A term of opprobrium used by anti-Zionist Christians to designate and stereotype a variety of Christian Zionism that is today generally identified with evangelical and dispensationalist Christians. That group believes in rapture and may believe in rapture. It also believes in "Greater Israel" ideology. The vast majority of Christians who support Zionism and Israel are not fundamentalists. Moreover, not all evangelical Christian supporters of Israel believe in the characteristic doctrines of what has been called "Christian Zionism" - such as rapture and conversion of the Jews. "Christian Zionists" in the sense of Christians who support Israel, include Catholics as well as members of Protestant denominations. However, the term is generally reserved for members of Protestant denominations." [url="http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm"]http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm[/url] in any event, it is clear that in that article, the Patriarchs that signed it are not referring to any type of eschatological belief but to real life policies that they disagree with. they are talking about Christian support for the state of Israel when they talk about Christian Zionism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Aloysius' post='1813501' date='Mar 21 2009, 07:04 PM']God did give it to the Jews in the Old Covenant, which has been transformed into the New Covenant in which the Church is the new Israel; the Jews are offered the Church as their Israel along with all of the other nations; and they have no special divine claim to any geographical location presently on the basis of scripture in a Catholic understanding. from the anti-Christian-Zionism article: "We further reject the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizations with elements in the governments of Israel and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral preemptive borders and domination over Palestine... The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the Separation Wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermine the viability of a Palestinian state as well as peace and security in the entire region." these statements would be contrary to scripture if we considered that the entire land there was given to the Jewish people; but the Church does not consider those proscriptions of the Old Covenant to be in force; God fulfills his promise to Israel by what He does for the Church, which is that He has given it dominion over the whole world under the new Davidic Kingdom of Christ... the land of Palestine does not belong to the Jewish people any more than it belongs to the Palestinian people.[/quote] You keep going back to the statement on zionism as if is written in gold. The statement expresses the OPINIONS of a select group of people, with whom I disagree on some points ("confiscated Palestinian land" makes me laugh--land that the Muslims robbed from the Jews and the Christians IN THE FIRST PLACE). Catholics are ALLOWED TO DISAGREE. You are the one who should not be telling people at Phatmass that "Catholics may not think like this" and instead force your own anti-semetic, anti-Israel rheotoric on others as being authentic Church teaching. The Bible has spoken on the matter. I don't get at all how you take "I have created a covenant with you forever" to mean "forever....until I come up with a different idea, and then I'll change it". Edited March 22, 2009 by Madame Vengier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1813502' date='Mar 21 2009, 07:09 PM']Zionism refers to the idea that the Jews have a divine right to the land in Israel, it has no NECESSARY eschatological aspects, though it is sometimes associated with protestant eschatological beliefs "Zionism is the national revival movement of the Jewish people. It holds that the Jews have the right to self-determination in their own national home, and the right to develop their national culture. Historically, Zionism strove to create a legally recognized national home for the Jews in their historical homeland. This goal was implemented by the creation of the State of Israel. Today, Zionism supports the existence of the state of Israel and helps to inspire a revival of Jewish national life, culture and language. " [url="http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_definitions.htm"]http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_definitions.htm[/url] nor does Christian Zionism, though it is stereotyped that way, it does not necessarily refer to eschatology: "Christian Zionism 1. In general - support for Israel and Zionism among Christians. 2. Support for restoration of the Jews based on Christian religious doctrine. 3. A term of opprobrium used by anti-Zionist Christians to designate and stereotype a variety of Christian Zionism that is today generally identified with evangelical and dispensationalist Christians. That group believes in rapture and may believe in rapture. It also believes in "Greater Israel" ideology. The vast majority of Christians who support Zionism and Israel are not fundamentalists. Moreover, not all evangelical Christian supporters of Israel believe in the characteristic doctrines of what has been called "Christian Zionism" - such as rapture and conversion of the Jews. "Christian Zionists" in the sense of Christians who support Israel, include Catholics as well as members of Protestant denominations. However, the term is generally reserved for members of Protestant denominations." [url="http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm"]http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm[/url] in any event, it is clear that in that article, the Patriarchs that signed it are not referring to any type of eschatological belief but to real life policies that they disagree with. they are talking about Christian support for the state of Israel when they talk about Christian Zionism.[/quote] The article is about CHRISTIAN ZIONISM, which is a deviant form of theology involving myths about Israel and the end of days. It is not about JEWISH ZIONISM, nor does it critique Jewish Zionism in any way. The article was NOT on point to this thread. Period, Aloysius! You are only trying to repeatly use it to enforce your anti-Israel bias and I'm not having it. This thread is not about Christian zionism or any other kind of zionism. There are no zionists in this thread. Beleiving the word of Scripture regarding the land given to the Jews does not equal "zionism". Do you get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1813502' date='Mar 21 2009, 07:09 PM']they are talking about Christian support for the state of Israel when they talk about Christian Zionism.[/quote] No. They. Are. Not. They are referring to CHRISTIAN ZIONISM. You are misleading people in this thread to think that anyone who supports Israel is a Christian zionist. It isn't so. Two different things entirely. Apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 the statement is the opinion of the only Christian authority in the Holy Land: The Patriarch(s) of Jerusalem... it is only an opinion, but it is a very authoritative one. These are Patriarchs, depending on your ecclesiology they're either one step below the Pope or on equal footing with the Pope within their own Churches (though the Latin Patriarchate is a sort of lesser patriarchate I believe)... these are important Apostles of Our Lord Jesus Christ who live in the area and their opinions are to be respected. I agree that Catholics may disagree on whether or not to support Israel; but I do not believe Catholics have any leeway to believe that the Biblical promise of the Promised Land to the Jewish People is in any way fulfilled in the modern state of Israel, because it is incumbent upon Catholics to believe that the Old Covenant has been superseded by the New. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 (edited) Nevermind Edited March 22, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1813505' date='Mar 21 2009, 09:20 PM']The article is about CHRISTIAN ZIONISM, which is a deviant form of theology involving myths about Israel and the end of days. It is not about JEWISH ZIONISM, nor does it critique Jewish Zionism in any way. The article was NOT on point to this thread. Period, Aloysius! You are only trying to repeatly use it to enforce your anti-Israel bias and I'm not having it. This thread is not about Christian zionism or any other kind of zionism. There are no zionists in this thread. Beleiving the word of Scripture regarding the land given to the Jews does not equal "zionism". Do you get it?[/quote] read the definition of Christian Zionism I cited again, it has NOTHING to do with eschatology and the end times. It is stereotyped as having to do with that, but the first two definitions listed have nothing to do with that and it is the first two definitions that the patriarchs are arguing against, they make no reference to any ideas about the end times, they only make reference to the territorial disputes themselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 [quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1813506' date='Mar 21 2009, 09:23 PM']No. They. Are. Not. They are referring to CHRISTIAN ZIONISM. You are misleading people in this thread to think that anyone who supports Israel is a Christian zionist. It isn't so. Two different things entirely. Apples and oranges.[/quote] Christian Zionism means Christians who support Israel. period. [url="http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm"]http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madame Vengier Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1813513' date='Mar 21 2009, 07:27 PM']Christian Zionism means Christians who support Israel. period. [url="http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm"]http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Christian_Zionism.htm[/url][/quote] You're being intellectually dishonest. And I'm done with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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