Israel To The Jews

[dairygirl4u2c]

maybe a better example would be that the UN came and insisted giving the indians more land as they expanded their population. now, it's that they either integrate into the US, or they integrate into the US- there's no options.
i'm pretty sure US cititzens would be talking about bygones and all that history is long gone. etc

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1813198' date='Mar 21 2009, 10:17 AM']Israel belongs to the Jews, as it is the land given to them by God 4,000 years ago at the establishment of the covenant. This is not make-believe or a myth or a legnd. It is part of salvation history. It is REAL. It makes me laugh when I see things about 1948 or the 1967 borders or even things like "Well, I think...". Timelines and personal opinions don't matter. God gave Israel to the Jews. Period, end of story.[/quote]
Catholics may NOT believe this. Be pro-Israel if you wish, but as a Catholic you are not permitted to believe that the Jewish race has a God-given right to that land based upon the Old Covenant, as the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant. The Church is the New Israel, and the true heir to that covenant... if anyone could claim some divine real estate deal for that land, it would be the Church (according to Catholic theology).

God is not a real estate agent.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813235' date='Mar 21 2009, 11:14 AM']Catholics may NOT believe this. Be pro-Israel if you wish, but as a Catholic you are not permitted to believe that the Jewish race has a God-given right to that land based upon the Old Covenant, as the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant. The Church is the New Israel, and the true heir to that covenant... if anyone could claim some divine real estate deal for that land, it would be the Church (according to Catholic theology).[/quote]
I never thought of it this way.
Huh. How about that!

[veroni213]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813235' date='Mar 21 2009, 11:14 AM']Catholics may NOT believe this. Be pro-Israel if you wish, but as a Catholic you are not permitted to believe that the Jewish race has a God-given right to that land based upon the Old Covenant, as the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant. The Church is the New Israel, and the true heir to that covenant... if anyone could claim some divine real estate deal for that land, it would be the Church (according to Catholic theology).

God is not a real estate agent.[/quote]

This is very true. I think a lot of Catholics in the US don't realize just how much of American political support for Israel is the consequence of defective variants of Christian theology. [i]Some [/i]of these people are waiting for the Left Behind scenario to play out. It's scary. That kind of attitude makes a resolution difficult.

We always need to be aware of the motivation of our ideological company.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813235' date='Mar 21 2009, 12:14 PM']Catholics may NOT believe this. Be pro-Israel if you wish, but as a Catholic you are not permitted to believe that the Jewish race has a God-given right to that land based upon the Old Covenant, as the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant. The Church is the New Israel, and the true heir to that covenant... if anyone could claim some divine real estate deal for that land, it would be the Church (according to Catholic theology).

God is not a real estate agent.[/quote]
God gave the land to the Israelites in perpetuity, [b]nowhere[/b] did He say he changed his mind on the deal. So until the Holy Father decides to change bases, it belongs to the jews.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813235' date='Mar 21 2009, 03:14 PM']Catholics may NOT believe this. Be pro-Israel if you wish, but as a Catholic you are not permitted to believe that the Jewish race has a God-given right to that land based upon the Old Covenant, as the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant. The Church is the New Israel, and the true heir to that covenant... if anyone could claim some divine real estate deal for that land, it would be the Church (according to Catholic theology).

God is not a real estate agent.[/quote]
While I personally am inclined to take this view, I was wondering if you had Church documents for this. Thank you!

[Resurrexi]

Archaeology Cat, this might be of some help to you

'29. And first of all, by the death of our Redeemer, the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished; then the Law of Christ together with its mysteries, enactments, institutions, and sacred rites was ratified for the whole world in the blood of Jesus Christ. For, while our Divine Savior was preaching in a restricted area - He was not sent but to the sheep that were lost of the House of Israel [30] - the Law and the Gospel were together in force; [31] but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees [32] fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross, [33] establishing the New Testament in His blood shed for the whole human race.[34] "To such an extent, then," says St. Leo the Great, speaking of the Cross of our Lord, "was there effected a transfer from the Law to the Gospel, from the Synagogue to the Church, from the many sacrifices to one Victim, that, as Our Lord expired, that mystical veil which shut off the innermost part of the temple and its sacred secret was rent violently from top to bottom." [35]

30. On the Cross then the Old Law died, soon to be buried and to be a bearer of death, [36] in order to give way to the New Testament of which Christ had chosen the Apostles as qualified ministers; [37] and although He had been constituted the Head of the whole human family in the womb of the Blessed Virgin, it is by the power of the Cross that our Savior exercises fully the office itself of Head of His Church. "For it was through His triumph on the Cross," according to the teaching of the Angelic and Common Doctor, "that He won power and dominion over the gentiles";[38] by that same victory He increased the immense treasure of graces, which, as He reigns in glory in heaven, He lavishes continually on His mortal members; it was by His blood shed on the Cross that God's anger was averted and that all the heavenly gifts, especially the spiritual graces of the New and Eternal Testament, could then flow from the fountains of our Savior for the salvation of men, of the faithful above all; it was on the tree of the Cross, finally, that He entered into possession of His Church, that is, of all the members of His Mystical Body; for they would not have been untied to this Mystical Body through the waters of Baptism except by the salutary virtue of the Cross, by which they had been already brought under the complete sway of Christ.

31. But if our Savior, by His death, became, in the full and complete sense of the word, the Head of the Church, it was likewise through His blood that the Church was enriched with the fullest communication of the Holy Spirit, through which, from the time when the Son of Man was lifted up and glorified on the Cross by His sufferings, she is divinely illumined. For then, as Augustine notes, [39] with the rending of the veil of the temple it happened that the dew of the Paraclete's gifts, which heretofore had descended only on the fleece, that is on the people of Israel, fell copiously and abundantly (while the fleece remained dry and deserted) on the whole earth, that is on the Catholic Church, which is confined by no boundaries of race or territory. Just as at the first moment of the Incarnation the Son of the Eternal Father adorned with the fullness of the Holy Spirit the human nature which was substantially united to Him, that it might be a fitting instrument of the Divinity in the sanguinary work of the Redemption, so at the hour of His precious death He willed that His Church should be enriched with the abundant gifts of the Paraclete in order that in dispensing the divine fruits of the Redemption she might be, for the Incarnate Word, a powerful instrument that would never fail. For both the juridical mission of the Church, and the power to teach, govern and administer the Sacraments, derive their supernatural efficacy and force for the building up of the Body of Christ from the fact that Jesus Christ, hanging on the Cross, opened up to His Church the fountain of those divine gifts, which prevent her from ever teaching false doctrine and enable her to rule them for the salvation of their souls through divinely enlightened pastors and to bestow on them an abundance of heavenly graces.

32. If we consider closely all these mysteries of the Cross, those words of the Apostle are no longer obscure, in which he teaches the Ephesians that Christ, by His blood, made the Jews and Gentiles one "breaking down the middle wall of partition...in his flesh" by which the two peoples were divided; and that He made the Old Law void "that He might make the two in Himself into one new man," that is, the Church, and might reconcile both to God in one Body by the Cross." [40]' (Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi)

Edited March 21, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Aloysius]

God didn't change his mind, the covenant is still in place and offered to all people through Christ. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek. The belief that any of the proscriptions of the Old Covenant are in any way simultaneously in force alongside the New Covenant is a subset of the heresy of the Judaizers... the true Catholic teaching, as posted above, says that the New Covenant is the complete fulfillment of the Old and therefore fully takes the place of it. The lands of Palestine are not specially reserved for the race of Hebrews now any more than circumcision is the continuing sign of covenant with God. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant and it has been superseded by the New.

I don't know what you mean about the Holy Father switching bases, I am not aware of any time he has acknowledged a divine right of the Jewish people to that land which supersedes the rights of the local Palestinian peoples. recognizing and defending the state is one thing, which I consider to be bad politics and will argue against as such; but considering the state the rightful continuation of God's covenant is quite another thing, which I consider to be not bad politics, but bad theology.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813235' date='Mar 21 2009, 10:14 AM']Catholics may NOT believe this. Be pro-Israel if you wish, but as a Catholic you are not permitted to believe that the Jewish race has a God-given right to that land based upon the Old Covenant, as the Old Covenant has been fulfilled and superseded by the New Covenant. The Church is the New Israel, and the true heir to that covenant... if anyone could claim some divine real estate deal for that land, it would be the Church (according to Catholic theology).

God is not a real estate agent.[/quote]

This reponse is of no surpise, since your bias against Israel and the Jews has been evident long before this thread. It scares me that there are people in this forum who believe every word you say and who believe--for some bizarre reason--that you are never (and can never be) wrong. I simply don't know how you came to receive this crown of infallibility.

It is NOT a teaching of the Church that one covenant superceded another. There is only ONE covenant. That covenant was *fulfilled*, not erased, and God's promises to the Chosen People remain the same. You seem to be under the impression that since the Incarnation the Jews (and Israel) have no further role in salvation history, and you are passing this misinformation on to others who know very little about the subject. However, there is no supporting data in Church teaching, the writings of the Fathers, or Scripture which supports your bias--which you are passing off as authentic Church teaching.

Everyone else: If you want to fully understand the role of Israel and the Jews in salvation history (past, present and FUTURE), read 'Salvation is From the Jews', by Roy Schoeman, a very devout Catholic converted from Judaism. Schoeman is entirely faithful to the Magisterium and the Holy Father. There is no error in his writing. You can get the book on Amazon.

Returning to the topic of Israel as a nation: Regardless of what anyone thinks about the origins or role of Israel, one fact is for sure: The Israelis (of whom are NOT all Jews, that should be noted) have the same rights as every other state to defend the borders of their sovereign nation.

Edited March 21, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813472' date='Mar 21 2009, 06:08 PM']God didn't change his mind, the covenant is still in place and offered to all people through Christ. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek. The belief that any of the proscriptions of the Old Covenant are in any way simultaneously in force alongside the New Covenant is a subset of the heresy of the Judaizers... the true Catholic teaching, as posted above, says that the New Covenant is the complete fulfillment of the Old and therefore fully takes the place of it. The lands of Palestine are not specially reserved for the race of Hebrews now any more than circumcision is the continuing sign of covenant with God. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant and it has been superseded by the New.

I don't know what you mean about the Holy Father switching bases, I am not aware of any time he has acknowledged a divine right of the Jewish people to that land which supersedes the rights of the local Palestinian peoples. recognizing and defending the state is one thing, which I consider to be bad politics and will argue against as such; but considering the state the rightful continuation of God's covenant is quite another thing, which I consider to be not bad politics, but bad theology.[/quote]


Aloysius, please at least make an effort to use correct terminology while you are expressing your bias against Israel. To wit: there is no such place as "the lands of Palestine". The term "Palestine" is simply a small geographical locale within a greater area...such as Georgetown is in Washington, DC. There are no "Palestinian lands" and no "Palestinian nation" or any such thing. Palestine is, and always was, a small geographical area within Greater Israel.

And if you really think the Holy Father doesn't recognize the divine right of the Jews to their land, Israel, then you are really have been reading some kind of anti-Israel propaganda.

I do think it's interesting how you repeatedly refer to the Jewish people as "a race".

Again, there is no "supersceding" of any covenant. There is only one and the same covenant, which has been fulfilled. I don't honestly know where you get the term "supersceded" from. But you seem to be using that term as leverage to claim that the Jews have no claim to Israel and indeed no claim to salvation history.

Thank God--for our sake--that the Jews in Israel don't feel the same way about Christians as you do about the Jews, or they would have tossed us off their land and destroyed our holy sites long before now. Like the Muslims have been doing for 1,300 years.

[Aloysius]

yes, there is only one Covenant, the New Covenant which superseded the Old. Resurexi's quote from Pius XII above explains everything much better than I ever could.

people don't treat me as infallible, Madame... some people agree with me and some do not... cmom often agrees with me in threads, she has challenged me on this point... as do most people here. I have no infallibility to speak of, you're just mad that sometimes some people find my arguments more compelling than yours... sorry, but it happens. there are people who find your arguments more compelling than mine on some issues too, things ebb and flow; I claim no infallibility and will always admit to an error when I have found I am wrong (I have done so before on these phorums, something which some people have complemented me on as most people tend to dig in their heels when defeated)

"On the Cross then the Old Law died" is one quote from Pius XII cited above; another is Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek... in Christ"; another is the Council of Florence's condemnation of Judaizers:
[quote]It firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.[/quote]

this all refers to the fact that the proscriptions of the Old Covenant are over and are not to be observed; we are not to tell people living in Palestine to submit to rule by Hebrew peoples, or people who are religiously Jewish, on the basis of God giving them the land forever.

What I am saying certainly has a huge foundation in the Church fathers and in the Scriptures and in the teachings of the Church: the Church is the New Israel and all the promises offered in the Old Covenant are due to her.

[Aloysius]

[quote]And if you really think the Holy Father doesn't recognize the divine right of the Jews to their land, Israel, then you are really have been reading some kind of anti-Israel propaganda.[/quote]
Please provide a quote from the Holy Father referring to a God-given right for the Jewish people (defined either racially or religiously, take your pick) to those lands.

I side with the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and the leaders of the Episcopal and Lutheran communities in Jerusalem: [url="http://www.zenit.org/article-16848?l=english"]http://www.zenit.org/article-16848?l=english[/url]

I use the term "supersede" because, well, there's a whole long history of the Catholic Church's theology regarding the Old and New Testaments which is called [b]supersessionism[/b]... current Roman Catholic Covenant theology, with origins in the twentieth century but which is considered a recovery of the Patristic interpretation of scripture, does not contradict this view, but protestant covenant theology and protestant dispensationalist theology do contradict it... the basis of it is that the New Covenant supersedes the Old by fulfilling it.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813480' date='Mar 21 2009, 06:29 PM']yes, there is only one Covenant, the New Covenant which superseded the Old. Resurexi's quote from Pius XII above explains everything much better than I ever could.

people don't treat me as infallible, Madame... some people agree with me and some do not... cmom often agrees with me in threads, she has challenged me on this point... as do most people here. I have no infallibility to speak of, you're just mad that sometimes some people find my arguments more compelling than yours... sorry, but it happens. there are people who find your arguments more compelling than mine on some issues too, things ebb and flow; I claim no infallibility and will always admit to an error when I have found I am wrong (I have done so before on these phorums, something which some people have complemented me on as most people tend to dig in their heels when defeated)

"On the Cross then the Old Law died" is one quote from Pius XII cited above; another is Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek... in Christ"; another is the Council of Florence's condemnation of Judaizers:


this all refers to the fact that the proscriptions of the Old Covenant are over and are not to be observed; we are not to tell people living in Palestine to submit to rule by Hebrew peoples, or people who are religiously Jewish, on the basis of God giving them the land forever.

What I am saying certainly has a huge foundation in the Church fathers and in the Scriptures and in the teachings of the Church: the Church is the New Israel and all the promises offered in the Old Covenant are due to her.[/quote]


Your Freudian slip is showing, Al. I was never referring to people's response to you (i.e. I'm "mad" that your "argument is more compelling" than mine??) and I had not read all the responses when I replied to you. I was referring to the fact that in general you are held up in PM as a dispenser of perfect theology when, in fact, you are not. Also, the reference to Jew and Greek refers to the equality of all people in Christ. No one, at no time, said Jews were better or superior or above anyone else. So I don't really get why you need to continue using that passage as if to prove something.

No one is telling the people of the Palestine locale to submit to anyone. They had the chance to create a Palestinian state alongside Israel and they REFUSED TO DO IT, choosing instead to invade Israel. The Israelis are not trying to make anyone submit to them. They simply want the Arabs to stop making demands of land that don't belong to the Arabs. Israel has already given land to the Arabs and they have ruined it and used it to further launch attacks on Israel. I find it interesting that your allegiance is with the Arabs who are terrorists that routinely attack and kill Jews and Christians in the region, while putting down the Jews who are our elder brothers in the Faith and with whome Christians have more in common than with any other people in the world.

And now, strangely, you are referring to them as "the Hebrew peoples" after repeatly referring to "the Jewish race". Why can't you just call them ISRAELIS? That is what they are.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813481' date='Mar 21 2009, 06:33 PM']Please provide a quote from the Holy Father referring to a God-given right for the Jewish people (defined either racially or religiously, take your pick) to those lands.[/quote]

And they are racially AND religiously Jewish, but they are ISRAELIS.

It's not my duty to look for quotes for you. Please do your own research. Since you are so convinced of your own argument, one would think you already have something to back it up. Quotes from the Holy Father denying the Israelis their God-given piece of land?

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1813481' date='Mar 21 2009, 06:33 PM']I side with the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, the Syrian Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and the leaders of the Episcopal and Lutheran communities in Jerusalem: [url="http://www.zenit.org/article-16848?l=english"]http://www.zenit.org/article-16848?l=english[/url][/quote]

This is an article on CHRISTIAN ZIONISM. Where, oh where, has anyone in this thread mentioned "zionism"??? Why did you feel the need to post the link to an article about a topic that NO ONE is discussing? I myself am not a Christian zionist, and I haven't seen anyone else here mention it either. So, color me puzzled as to your motives.

[quote]Christian Zionism is a modern theological and political movement that embraces the most extreme ideological positions of Zionism, thereby becoming detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Israel.[/quote]