Would Islam be more effective in fighting AIDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1812102' date='Mar 20 2009, 12:24 AM']thats somewhat true occasionally, and a nice sentiment. but the topic wasnt ever about which religion is better or nicer. efficiency in keeping people in line was it.[/quote]
Well in that case my comment isn't at all out of line.

If efficiency is the only concern, killing everybody who has AIDS or HIV is the best solution.


The disconnect doesn't work.

[Jesus_lol]

your statement is as true as the one about islam being more efficient at this sort of thing.

i dont think it is the right choice either, merely looking at it from a disconnected hypothetical logic based viewpoint and speculating.



although at this point i think any widespread system with rules that even approach good morality, would be a big step in the right direction for certain parts of africa

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1812124' date='Mar 20 2009, 12:59 AM']your statement is as true as the one about islam being more efficient at this sort of thing.

i dont think it is the right choice either, merely looking at it from a disconnected hypothetical logic based viewpoint and speculating.



although at this point i think any widespread system with rules that even approach good morality, would be a big step in the right direction for certain parts of africa[/quote]
The problem with Africa that makes it so different from the more developed world is the prevalance of tribal culture. One solution would be to basically forcefully impose a different way of thinking. Of course that would be rather colonial of us.
I think that somehow we need to approach this as much as we can from their way of thinking, and (maybe not for you, but for us) adapting the traditional African way of thinking to an orthodox Catholic moral code.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1811933' date='Mar 19 2009, 09:41 PM']Islam keeps its adherents in line through fear and intimidation. Christianity keeps its adherents in line through love. Despite all the mistakes that Christians make, I wouldn't change a thing.[/quote]


That's true. You see unlike the loving God of Christianity Islam teaches its believers that is they stray outside the bounds of God's moral dictations without seeking forgiveness thay will be sent to a horrible afterlife full of fire and stones

They threaten non Muslims with the same sick, sadastic threat

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1812131' date='Mar 20 2009, 02:08 AM']The problem with Africa that makes it so different from the more developed world is the prevalance of tribal culture. One solution would be to basically forcefully impose a different way of thinking. Of course that would be rather colonial of us.
I think that somehow we need to approach this as much as we can from their way of thinking, and (maybe not for you, but for us) adapting the traditional African way of thinking to an orthodox Catholic moral code.[/quote]


So, the Church should be changed by culture, rather than culture being changed by the Church?

Doesn't sound quite right, does it? If the Church cannot inform and transform culture then what is the Gospel for anyway? Why did the Incarnation happen at all?

We should remember who this world belongs to.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1812124' date='Mar 20 2009, 01:59 AM']your statement is as true as the one about islam being more efficient at this sort of thing.

i dont think it is the right choice either, merely looking at it from a disconnected hypothetical logic based viewpoint and speculating.



although at this point i think any widespread system with rules that even approach good morality, would be a big step in the right direction for certain parts of africa[/quote]

nah dude, i'm an African and i think that would be a bad idea.

[Jesus_lol]

really? cool! dont want to badger you, but can you explain why?

i wouldnt want to impose any big cultural change on africa, like mass converting(specially since i am not catholic), but i was thinking if there was something, like a non corrupt and powerful government (hehehe yeah, right.)that could make rules stick, there might be less warfare/aids/etc.

[saintwannabe 777]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1813226' date='Mar 21 2009, 10:53 AM']really? cool! dont want to badger you, but can you explain why?

i wouldnt want to impose any big cultural change on africa, like mass converting(specially since i am not catholic), but i was thinking if there was something, like a non corrupt and powerful government (hehehe yeah, right.)that could make rules stick, there might be less warfare/aids/etc.[/quote]

No, the government won't help too much, though it could be a step in a good direction. But what needs to happen is that people just keep praying for Africa and giving them Our Lord. They are hungry for Him and when it comes to faith, they are ready to accept Him. Also, corruption is the Evil One's way of keeping Africa down, because he knows the potential for good that Africa has within it. That's why Our Lady of Kiebo appeared there.

Edited March 21, 2009 by saintwannabe 777

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1812131' date='Mar 20 2009, 03:08 AM']The problem with Africa that makes it so different from the more developed world is the prevalance of tribal culture. One solution would be to basically forcefully impose a different way of thinking. Of course that would be rather colonial of us.
I think that somehow we need to approach this as much as we can from their way of thinking, and (maybe not for you, but for us) adapting the traditional African way of thinking to an orthodox Catholic moral code.[/quote]
Any solution that does not come from African culture is no solution at all, because it will be ignored.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1813287' date='Mar 21 2009, 12:13 PM']Any solution that does not come from African culture is no solution at all, because it will be ignored.[/quote]

We studied this last semester in Pastoral Theology. Enculturation is how an individual is initiated and grows into their culture. Inculturation is the process by which the Church inserts itself into a particular culture. In [i]Evangelii Nuntiandi[/i] #63 says "The individual Churches, intimately built up not only of people but also of aspiration, or riches and limitations, of ways of praying, of loving, of looking at life and world which distinguish this or that human gathering, have the task of assimilating the essence of the Gospel message and of transposing it, without the slightest betrayal of its essential truth, into the language that these particular people understand, then of proclaiming it in this language." In the first stage the Church comes into contact with a new culture, and the missionaries go through a process of acculturation. When large enough numbers of the local population join the Church, inculturation begins. The entire process of inculturation is one of integration.

Ary Crollius at the Pontifical University did a paper on it where he says, "the integration of the Christian experience of a local Church into the culture of its people, in such a way that this experience not only expresses itself in elements of this culture, but becomes a force that animates, orients and innovates this culture so as to create a new unity and communion, not only within the culture in question but also as an enrichment of the Church universal." In a real way, inculturation has been core to the Church from the very beginning.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1813200' date='Mar 21 2009, 08:21 AM']So, the Church should be changed by culture, rather than culture being changed by the Church?

Doesn't sound quite right, does it? If the Church cannot inform and transform culture then what is the Gospel for anyway? Why did the Incarnation happen at all?

We should remember who this world belongs to.[/quote]
The Church has always said that practices can be changed in certain cases depending on the prevailing culture.
Disciplines, not doctrine. Not belief.

If it communicates the truth better to a different culture, that's a fairly important thing to consider.

On a very trivial level, in Africa and other hot climates, cassocks may be white, while everywhere else they must be black or dark blue or sometimes grey.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1813362' date='Mar 21 2009, 04:51 PM']We studied this last semester in Pastoral Theology. Enculturation is how an individual is initiated and grows into their culture. Inculturation is the process by which the Church inserts itself into a particular culture. In [i]Evangelii Nuntiandi[/i] #63 says "The individual Churches, intimately built up not only of people but also of aspiration, or riches and limitations, of ways of praying, of loving, of looking at life and world which distinguish this or that human gathering, have the task of assimilating the essence of the Gospel message and of transposing it, without the slightest betrayal of its essential truth, into the language that these particular people understand, then of proclaiming it in this language." In the first stage the Church comes into contact with a new culture, and the missionaries go through a process of acculturation. When large enough numbers of the local population join the Church, inculturation begins. The entire process of inculturation is one of integration.

Ary Crollius at the Pontifical University did a paper on it where he says, "the integration of the Christian experience of a local Church into the culture of its people, in such a way that this experience not only expresses itself in elements of this culture, but becomes a force that animates, orients and innovates this culture so as to create a new unity and communion, not only within the culture in question but also as an enrichment of the Church universal." In a real way, inculturation has been core to the Church from the very beginning.[/quote]

I wasn't thinking that deeply on it , simply that African Catholics have to formulate how they want to reach other Africans, we can't just dump a western solution on them and expect it to work. Its insulting to think its our job not theirs.

I try to keep this quote in mind, can't remember were its from:

There's a distinction between fixing, helping and serving.
"When you fix, you assume something is broken," Fred said. "When you help, you see the person as weak. But when you serve, you see the person as intrinsically whole. You create a relationship in which both parties gain. The purpose of love is to serve."

[CatherineM]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1813464' date='Mar 21 2009, 05:54 PM']I wasn't thinking that deeply on it , simply that African Catholics have to formulate how they want to reach other Africans, we can't just dump a western solution on them and expect it to work. Its insulting to think its our job not theirs.

I try to keep this quote in mind, can't remember were its from:

There's a distinction between fixing, helping and serving.
"When you fix, you assume something is broken," Fred said. "When you help, you see the person as weak. But when you serve, you see the person as intrinsically whole. You create a relationship in which both parties gain. The purpose of love is to serve."[/quote]

My brain is stuck in final exam mode right now. Sorry. Even my emails have gotten deep and philosophical. It will pass as soon as I start my Canadian taxes.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1813494' date='Mar 21 2009, 08:55 PM']My brain is stuck in final exam mode right now. Sorry. Even my emails have gotten deep and philosophical. It will pass as soon as I start my Canadian taxes.[/quote]
Don't be sorry!!!! I always learn somethnig when I read your posts.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1813287' date='Mar 21 2009, 12:13 PM']Any solution that does not come from African culture is no solution at all, because it will be ignored.[/quote]

I totally agree with that.