Would Islam be more effective in fighting AIDS

[bonkers]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810186' date='Mar 17 2009, 07:15 PM']I agree with the Holy Father and the Church's stance on this. Condoms will NOT help the situation in Africa regarding AIDS. At best, it would be a minor bandaid remedy. The only way to stop this tragedy in Africa is for the continent to become more and more Christianized. There are already many Christians in Africa and I wonder if they count among the numbers of the afflicted. I'm going to take a stab and say "no". It's a fact, whether people like it or not, that Judeo-Christian values facilitate a more happy, healthy and wholesome lifestyle. This is irrefutable. Secondly, condoms are readily and cheaply available in the western world, yet just this week shocking news was reported that the stats on AIDS in Washington DC (where I live) shows that 30% of the DC population has AIDS. THIRTY PERCENT. It's incredible, just incredible. The fact is, change of lifestyle is the optimum choice, and second to that is the question of whether or not people would be willing to use the condoms in the first place. I don't think the liberals who want to fly over Africa and drop plane-loads of condoms on the ground for the masses really understand this culture. The very same culture that sees no moral problem in having multiple sex partners both in and out of marriage (not to mention the "hidden" homosexuality that exists in Africa but which no one wants to talk about) is also going to steadfastly reject the use of condoms. Good luck trying to get African men to use condoms!! Might as well tell them to paint their nails and wear pink underwear, too. It isn't going to happen. This is a culture which has deepseated notions of masculinity (however flawed those notions may be) and condom use will not fit into their groove. This is exactly the same thing happening in the DC culture. The overwhelming majority of the 30% of AIDS cases here are among black men and women (black men spreading it to their women). They can have all the condoms they want, so why are there so many with AIDS?? Because they feel demoralized by condoms. They simply refuse to use them. And here too, there is a large underground community of so-called straight men engaging in homosexual activity. It even has a name. It's called "being on the Down Low" or "the DL" for short. I'm not going to go into details about that, as this is a topic relating to Africa. But the cultural/societal views of masculinity are the same and the result is the same.[/quote]

I think implementing islamic law would be far more effective in fighting AIDS than christianity. They can at least enforce punishments for things like sex outside of wedlock and infidelity. In fact most of the worst affected regions in Africa are christian countries. Theoretically, if everyone was a devout christian, or muslim, or mormon or any religion there would a dramatic decline in the rate of AIDS, but going on a religious crusade to make everybody good christians just isn't practial. Everyone knows this, it will never work. Ever. What has worked however is promoting abstinence, fidelity and condoms as a last resort. This is proven to work. condoms only and abstinence only education are proven to fail, and I don't get why people are too proud to admit their methods s.uck. My opinion is that if the church and secular groups truly give a stuff about reducing AIDS they should work together to roll out the ABC program in every AIDS affected country in Africa, but of course this involves making compromises and neither side is prepared to do this hence why little progress is being made and millions of people are dying every year.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1810554' date='Mar 18 2009, 12:24 PM']I think implementing islamic law would be far more effective in fighting AIDS than christianity. They can at least enforce punishments for things like sex outside of wedlock and infidelity.[/quote]

Sure, like stonings and lashings and imprisonment without a fair trial.

Do you ACTUALLY advocate for that, or were you trying to make a joke??

[rose wrought of iron]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810904' date='Mar 18 2009, 07:17 PM']Sure, like stonings and lashings and imprisonment without a fair trial.

Do you ACTUALLY advocate for that, or were you trying to make a joke??[/quote]
Umm... did you read the rest of his post? He makes a valid point. If enough people would follow their religion - whatever religion it was - there would probably be a sharp decline of AIDS and STDs.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='rose wrought of iron' post='1810909' date='Mar 18 2009, 06:24 PM']Umm... did you read the rest of his post? He makes a valid point. If enough people would follow their religion - whatever religion it was - there would probably be a sharp decline of AIDS and STDs.[/quote]


I read his post. I don't think advocating the spread of a religion that punishes immorality by stonings and lashings is the answer, either. Christianity respects people's free will and teachers its adherents to do good and live justly for Jesus' sake, not for fear of punishment. "Bonkers" stated that ISLAM was a better idea than CHRISTIANITY because Islam advocates corporeal punishment. I vehemently disagree. I also already stated in MY post that the key to changing the situation in Africa is in changing lifestyles, hearts and minds. And what "Bonkers" is advocating is not changing people's hearts, but rather casting into them fear of corporeal punishment for violations against morality. This isn't really in keeping with the spirit of the Gospel, is it?

[Jesus_lol]

no you missed the point. he wasnt saying that Islam is a better idea than christianity, just that it would probably be more effective in this particular case.
and he is right.

[rose wrought of iron]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810918' date='Mar 18 2009, 07:35 PM']I read his post. I don't think advocating the spread of a religion that punishes immorality by stonings and lashings is the answer, either. Christianity respects people's free will and teachers its adherents to do good and live justly for Jesus' sake, not for fear of punishment. "Bonkers" stated that ISLAM was a better idea than CHRISTIANITY because Islam advocates corporeal punishment. I vehemently disagree. I also already stated in MY post that the key to changing the situation in Africa is in changing lifestyles, hearts and minds. And what "Bonkers" is advocating is not changing people's hearts, but rather casting into them fear of corporeal punishment for violations against morality. This isn't really in keeping with the spirit of the Gospel, is it?[/quote]

But sadly, most of these people don't believe in the Gospel. And sometimes before you can fix their hearts, you have to fix their bodies first, right? A person who is too busy doing what they have to do in order to stay alive won't be too worried about the state of their soul. And in order to stay alive, it may be good to follow laws (especially those regarding rapists and such) which have serious, life-threatening repercussions. Just my two cents.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='rose wrought of iron' post='1810930' date='Mar 18 2009, 06:49 PM']But sadly, most of these people don't believe in the Gospel. And sometimes before you can fix their hearts, you have to fix their bodies first, right? A person who is too busy doing what they have to do in order to stay alive won't be too worried about the state of their soul. And in order to stay alive, it may be good to follow laws (especially those regarding rapists and such) which have serious, life-threatening repercussions. Just my two cents.[/quote]


That's fine. But your comment to me was in reply to my remarks rejecting the notion that Islam would be better for the African AIDS crisis b/c Muslims would exact corporeal punishment for immoral behavior. Your comment to me was NOT in reference to my original remarks on the topic of the Pope/Africa/Condoms. And you--a person who lists your religion as Roman Catholic--ARE advocating for Islamic-style stonings and lashings as punishment for immorality. So let's keep things straight, okay?

Edited March 19, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1810924' date='Mar 18 2009, 06:43 PM']no you missed the point. he wasnt saying that Islam is a better idea than christianity, just that it would probably be more effective in this particular case.
and he is right.[/quote]


And here we have yet a THIRD person advocating that people be TORTURED in INHUMAN WAYS as punishment for immoral behavior.

Moving right along....

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810966' date='Mar 18 2009, 07:22 PM']And here we have yet a THIRD person advocating that people be TORTURED in INHUMAN WAYS as punishment for immoral behavior.

Moving right along....[/quote]
We could just kill them all.

'twould solve the problem.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810966' date='Mar 18 2009, 08:22 PM']And here we have yet a THIRD person advocating that people be TORTURED in INHUMAN WAYS as punishment for immoral behavior.

Moving right along....[/quote]


Just like "The Nile" you have missed the point. He is not avocating Islamic law. Tke a chill pill, go back, and read it again and I think you might see what is going on.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810966' date='Mar 18 2009, 08:22 PM']And here we have yet a THIRD person advocating that people be TORTURED in INHUMAN WAYS as punishment for immoral behavior.

Moving right along....[/quote]


Even if that was what he is saying, which it isin't, I don't see why you have such a problem with it. Paul advocates corporal punishment to make children conform to moral standards as I recall. Moreover your God surely does not a priori have a problem with the idea. I'm sure you've read the torah.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810980' date='Mar 18 2009, 07:39 PM']You know what? You go ahead--you and Hassan and J_LOL--and have the thread. Just have a field day playing in it and hijacking it. I'm done making my points relating to the topic in any case.[/quote]

Ok, but there are a few points you have not adressed. For instance you still seem to be under the impression that several posters ae actually advocating the implementation of Islamic fiqh to correct the AIDS epidemic.

[Jesus_lol]

i dont see what the heck is wrong all of a sudden with "jumping in" to a topic after the first couple of pages to speak your mind. that is twice i have heard that in 2 days, first from HCF second from you, and it makes no sense.

for the record, something does not have to be moral to be effective, neither do i have to be advocating it to say that it is so.

for instance, if someone were to go back and shoot baby Hitler, that would be pretty effective in staving off genocide and war. it would be immoral, and i am not advocating it.

[mod] edit, personal attack-- HSM[/mod]

i dont think islam should be put into place anywhere. i dont think it would be beneficial. i did say that strict muslim law might reduce SOME immoral behavior in africa. merely by its reputation as being stricter, like a harsh oldschool principle with a cane. he isnt helping in the long run, but the kids are a bit better behaved.

but then again, i did just mention islam without outright condemning it in the same breath. so i guess i can expect more of the same from you.

and no, i dont want principles with canes either.

or to be lumped in with anyone. i am sorry this isnt really on the original topic anymore. i already said what i thought of it before being dragged into this, sorry.

Edited March 19, 2009 by homeschoolmom

[bonkers]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810904' date='Mar 18 2009, 06:17 PM']Sure, like stonings and lashings and imprisonment without a fair trial.

Do you ACTUALLY advocate for that, or were you trying to make a joke??[/quote]

I was actually questioning why you thought christianity was the sole solution to the AIDS epidemic? I was pointing out that Islam could do a better job of it, probably Buddhism as well. What makes christian values so special? I also think christianity restricts people freedoms, probably not as violently as Islam, but the church tends to exert an inordinate amount of control on people's lives, and this could be considered unethical by many seculars.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1811267' date='Mar 19 2009, 12:29 AM']I was actually questioning why you thought christianity was the sole solution to the AIDS epidemic? I was pointing out that Islam could do a better job of it, probably Buddhism as well. What makes christian values so special? I also think christianity restricts people freedoms, probably not as violently as Islam, but the church tends to exert an inordinate amount of control on people's lives, and this could be considered unethical by many seculars.[/quote]

I believe it has something to do with um... Christianity being the truth.

Being a convert to Catholicism, I can assure you that I am "free-er" then I ever was when I was living a little pagan lifestyle