From Atheist To Catholic

[bonkers]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1811105' date='Mar 18 2009, 09:50 PM']Contrary to what you want to believe, we do offer evidence besides the emotional. You can harp about individual miracles all you want, but the fact is we can throw thousands of them your way. Hundreds even in the last hundred years, many tested by secular people.
Your infinitely more reliable methods have given you absolutely nothing. Your belief system that bases itself entirely on empirical data which yields results comes up with precious little quantitative or qualitative evidence to go on.[/quote]

The problem is you give your supposed "evidences" more weight than they are actually worth. I have yet to see any independently verified miracles. If you know of any please feel free to send me a link. Most of the miracle claims are just anecdotes or can be explained scientifically, and there is some video stuff that has been manipulated to make it look miraculous and posted on the net. Despite the obvious editing tricks the people still want to believe, it's really sad.
Our methods have given us a stable and reliable platform on which to further branch out into other areas and uncover more knowledge about ourselves and the universe. Dare I say there probably wont be a god at the end of it, but that's no reason to pout. Anything's inherently more reliable and accurate than superstition.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1811231' date='Mar 18 2009, 11:08 PM']What's good when there's no standard of judgement?[/quote]

Who says there's no standard of judgement?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1811250' date='Mar 18 2009, 11:20 PM']The problem is you give your supposed "evidences" more weight than they are actually worth. I have yet to see any independently verified miracles. If you know of any please feel free to send me a link. Most of the miracle claims are just anecdotes or can be explained scientifically, and there is some video stuff that has been manipulated to make it look miraculous and posted on the net. Despite the obvious editing tricks the people still want to believe, it's really sad.
Our methods have given us a stable and reliable platform on which to further branch out into other areas and uncover more knowledge about ourselves and the universe. Dare I say there probably wont be a god at the end of it, but that's no reason to pout. Anything's inherently more reliable and accurate than superstition.[/quote]
What about miracles associated with Lourdes? Even you have to admit that there's "further investigation needed."

[bonkers]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1811273' date='Mar 18 2009, 11:34 PM']What about miracles associated with Lourdes? Even you have to admit that there's "further investigation needed."[/quote]

Any video footage of mary?? Anyone grown back a missing leg? God works in mysterious ways.. I don't think any further investigation is needed until you can prove it is something more than just anecdote and dubious medical report. I think the events at Fatima are far more intriguing, in so much that it is hard to explain how such a large group of people could simultaneously hallucinate, lie or delude themselves, but I wouldn't rule any of these out.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1811285' date='Mar 19 2009, 12:04 AM']Any video footage of mary?? Anyone grown back a missing leg? God works in mysterious ways.. I don't think any further investigation is needed until you can prove it is something more than just anecdote and dubious medical report. I think the events at Fatima are far more intriguing, in so much that it is hard to explain how such a large group of people could simultaneously hallucinate, lie or delude themselves, but I wouldn't rule any of these out.[/quote]
So you're going to tell me that actually, nobody has ever had a sickness cured by what they believed to be Lourdes water?

Don't avoid the tricky parts.

Fatima is good too.

I am, however, out of my league when we start talking about specifics in this, so if we're going to continue, you'll have to find a better sparring partner than myself.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1811291' date='Mar 19 2009, 01:16 AM']So you're going to tell me that actually, nobody has ever had a sickness cured by what they believed to be Lourdes water?[/quote]

Not that I have experienced or witnessed. Would another persons "story" be sufficient for you drop everything you believe and adopt a new way of life? You can't also deny the psychosomatic benefits of drinking water you think is holy and am convinced will cure you of any ailment. And what about all the people who have gone to Lourdes expecting to be cured and ended up dead? I'm pretty sure if you were to compare the stats properly there wouldn't be too much difference between Lourdes and any regular hospital.

[quote]I am, however, out of my league when we start talking about specifics in this, so if we're going to continue, you'll have to find a better sparring partner than myself.[/quote]

I win.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1811294' date='Mar 19 2009, 12:26 AM']Not that I have experienced or witnessed. Would another persons "story" be sufficient for you drop everything you believe and adopt a new way of life? You can't also deny the psychosomatic benefits of drinking water you think is holy and am convinced will cure you of any ailment.[/quote]
You also have experienced or witnessed a very large number of scientific theories and laws.

[quote]And what about all the people who have gone to Lourdes expecting to be cured and ended up dead? I'm pretty sure if you were to compare the stats properly there wouldn't be too much difference between Lourdes and any regular hospital.[/quote]
Any hospital that cures with placebo alone gets some major props from me...


Long story short, no matter how you paint it, there are inexplicable elements to our miracle stories. You can address as many of them as you like, and neither side will ever be satisfied, because we always have more miracles, and you always have a way out.
What it has to come down to is the very core of your belief. Think about that.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1811297' date='Mar 19 2009, 01:33 AM']You also have experienced or witnessed a very large number of scientific theories and laws.[/quote]

eh?

[quote]Any hospital that cures with placebo alone gets some major props from me...[/quote]

Sure, but that doesn't make them miracles.

[quote]Long story short, no matter how you paint it, there are inexplicable elements to our miracle stories. You can address as many of them as you like, and neither side will ever be satisfied, because we always have more miracles, and you always have a way out.
What it has to come down to is the very core of your belief. Think about that.[/quote]

For sure. You're a believer and I'm a skeptic, this pervades all areas of our lives. I'm naturally suspicious and unwilling to commit to something until it's proven beyond a reasoable doubt. I think miracle claims are almost always false and the one's that occassionally arouse curiosity sometimes require a more intricrate explanation, and even if we can't explain something entirely doesn't mean god did it. My point is unexplainable doesn't mean god. For something to mean god it should be explainable by god and not exploit our ignorance.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1811101' date='Mar 18 2009, 10:48 PM']You actually have no evidence either, but since the wager has infinite value, and I would rather risk being and doing good than sitting on the fence and saying Oops and finding out the hard way.[/quote]

My thoughts precisely. I admit I struggle with my faith, as precious as it is to me...but I would rather stand with it then abandon it and discover I was wrong. If I am wrong, then at the very least I know I've lived a good, honorable life that I don't regret.

Edited March 19, 2009 by MissyP89

[bonkers]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1811333' date='Mar 19 2009, 01:06 AM']My thoughts precisely. I admit I struggle with my faith, as precious as it is to me...but I would rather stand with it then abandon it and discover I was wrong. If I am wrong, then at the very least I know I've lived a good, honorable life that I don't regret.[/quote]

True, I guess false hope isn't really all that harmful. I remember making a decision to believe in truth no matter where it leads, I guess because I think a life that conforms with reality is more fulfilling than one that doesn't, and I wasn't going to be dictatated by a fear of being wrong and going to hell. But that's just me, everybodies different.

[eagle_eye222001]

Bonkers,

If you were to tell me with a straight face, that civilization and life as we know it came from nothing on its own.......I couldn't believe that.

You do not get something from nothing. Intelligence does not come from nothing. There must be a beginning of some sort.


Given the bible and this supposed Jesus that existed.....the people that died for him....the Catholic faith....when I consider all that together, it seems to make the most sense. It offers the strongest and the safest, but not the easiest moral standards for society, and it offers a much more reasonable explanation than any other faith in my opinion.

In the end, one must wonder how we came to be like this. Science can do wonders in showing why something happens. However, science ultimately cannot answer the "why" and will never be fully sufficient and will not show us how we were able to get this world from nothing.

----------------
Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/skillet/track/whispers+in+the+dark"]Skillet - Whispers In the Dark[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1811327' date='Mar 19 2009, 01:02 AM']For sure. You're a believer and I'm a skeptic, this pervades all areas of our lives. I'm naturally suspicious and unwilling to commit to something until it's proven beyond a reasoable doubt. I think miracle claims are almost always false and the one's that occassionally arouse curiosity sometimes require a more intricrate explanation, and even if we can't explain something entirely doesn't mean god did it. My point is unexplainable doesn't mean god. For something to mean god it should be explainable by god and not exploit our ignorance.[/quote]
What, you threw out Occam's Razor when science started to get tougher than religion?

I don't see why the dichotomy has to exist though. I'd say 99.5% or more of the Catholics that you'll meet, including this board, accept and believe everything science can prove. There's no reason to throw it out the window when you believe in God.

There seems to be some kind of fundemental disconnect between the way believers understand science and the way sceptics do. We've explained so many times, enough times that I think it's impossible for you to understand us the way we want you to.

[Ziggamafu]

The choice between atheism and theism is not a matter of science, but of rationality. You figure out which position is more reasonable and you go with that. Both sides represent people who don't know it all and aim for truth. Both sides have their devils and skeletons. But which side affords a more consistent and intellectually honest life? Which side is more practically suited to the human condition?

Edited March 19, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[bonkers]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1811339' date='Mar 19 2009, 02:18 AM']If you were to tell me with a straight face, that civilization and life as we know it came from nothing on its own.......I couldn't believe that. [/quote]

Neither could I. [i]Something[/i] must have always existed, I don't know what, perhaps the universe has always existed on some form or another. The problem with inserting the word 'god' in there is it demands the exact same explanation, for example, where did god come from, why is god, who is god etc. There are no satisying answers to any of these questions other than that god just is, so I apply the same logic to the origins of the universe.. it just is..

[quote]You do not get something from nothing. Intelligence does not come from nothing. There must be a beginning of some sort.[/quote]

God had a beginning?

[quote]Given the bible and this supposed Jesus that existed.....the people that died for him....the Catholic faith....when I consider all that together, it seems to make the most sense. It offers the strongest and the safest, but not the easiest moral standards for society, and it offers a much more reasonable explanation than any other faith in my opinion.[/quote]

If you were born in the middle east you would say the same about Islam.

[quote]In the end, one must wonder how we came to be like this. Science can do wonders in showing why something happens. However, science ultimately cannot answer the "why" and will never be fully sufficient and will not show us how we were able to get this world from nothing.[/quote]

Religion can't help us here either.

[bonkers]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1811410' date='Mar 19 2009, 08:03 AM']The choice between atheism and theism is not a matter of science, but of rationality. You figure out which position is more reasonable and you go with that. Both sides represent people who don't know it all and aim for truth. Both sides have their devils and skeletons. But which side affords a more consistent and intellectually honest life? Which side is more practically suited to the human condition?[/quote]

Perhaps it depends on the individual. I know for myself I am better suited and more comfortable with atheism. I have learned through experience. Intellectual honesty for me has no room for god, at least not the christian kind. Perhaps others might profit from belief, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone.