The Church - Ekklesia - Built On Peter.

[ironmonk]

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church(Ekklesia), and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Those who say that the Church lost it's way are wrong. They say that the "Church" is the people within it... that is one definition, but not in this verse.

Peter was the first Head Bishop (aka Pope). The Church was built on Peter by Christ. It will never be overcome. The Church of the New Covenant parallels the Church of the Old Covenant. A leading body of men are guided by God to teach men in Truth (1 Tim 3:15, St. Matt 18:17, St. John 14:16-18, St. Matt 5:13-15, St. Matt 28:18-20, St. Luke 10:16, Eph 4:1-6)

The Church in St. Matt 16:18 is clearly in context to what was built on Peter... The hierarchy of the Church was built on Peter... Peter's successor carried Peter's authority... and does so today... Pope John Paul II, successor of Peter...

The so called prot reformers left the Church to start their own churches based on their own personal beliefs.

The Church was never overcome, and the Church that is spoken of in St. Matt. 16:18 is the Catholic Church.

The Church built by Christ was not of lay people on Peter's shoulders, but it was the teaching authority that we have today... The Catholic Church; Pope; Bishops; Priests; Deacons.... The first bishops being the Apostles who were lead by Peter, just as Jesus told Peter to in St. John 21:15-17.

Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. The writings of the Early Church Fathers and history prove it.

To say that the Church spoken of in St. Matt 16:!8 was the sheep and the "real" Church left, is a strawman that will blow away in the wind of Truth. For Ekklesia (Church) was clearly the teaching authority. As we see Jesus point out...

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church(Ekklesia), then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

It's obvious that Jesus is not talking about bringing the worldwide Church of sheep together to settle an argument... Jesus is clearly speaking of the teaching authority that He gave to the Catholic Church.

To say that the Catholic Church was the Church built by Christ and lost it's way is to say Jesus was wrong.

The Church was built on Peter... but for the Church to be built on Peter, and have authority, it cannot be all Christian believers. The Catholic Church is that which is lead by the successor of Peter.

God Bless,

ironmonk

Edited August 10, 2003 by ironmonk

[Paladin D]

*Claps*

[ironmonk]

Another proof that shows those who left the Catholic Church built on Peter were wrong to do so AND that the "True Church" is the organization that was built on Peter...

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

Greek Orthodox first, with the denial of authority of Peter's successor.

Then Luther, a Catholic Priest.... leaving the Catholic Church.

Then other Catholics, leaving the Church....

"And from your own group" - Those who split off and started their own church could NOT possibly be the "True Church"...

The so called reformers came from a group called the Catholic Church to build their own churches based on their own doctrines... the doctrines of men... they are thousands of faiths, and popes unto themselves.

There is no way to get around the fact:

St. Matt 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church(Ekklesia), and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."

That the Church built by Christ is one in the same... One Faith and the same Faith in 33 AD, 400 AD, 1054 AD, 1517 AD, 1564 AD, 1611 AD, 1829 AD, 1907 AD, 1970 AD, 2003 AD, 2050 AD, and so on....

Those who love Christ, change for Christ.

Those who love themselves, build their own church.

God Bless,

ironmonk

Edited August 11, 2003 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

The "True Church" cannot come out of another group. The "True Church" will always be the original group.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Chrysologus]

"Never lost its way."

- Congregation for Word Usage

[ironmonk]

Is nothing ever going to comment?

inquiring minds want to know.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Aloysius]

that's a good verse

here's another i have never heard anyone use

the Gospel according to Saint John 17:11

And I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one EVEN AS WE ARE.

Jesus is one with the Father. Jesus is equal to the Father.

therefore we need a father to be one with. a father that we are equal to. this is where our unity lies.

B)

Pax Christi!

[ironmonk]

that's a good verse

here's another i have never heard anyone use

the Gospel according to Saint John 17:11

And I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to thee.  Holy Father, keep in thy name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one EVEN AS WE ARE.

Jesus is one with the Father.  Jesus is equal to the Father.

therefore we need a father to be one with.  a father that we are equal to.  this is where our unity lies. 

B)

Pax Christi!

great point.

God Bless,

ironmonk

[Aloysius]

great point.

thanx. i wonder y no one's replying against this. i guess the argument's too darn strong. B)

PEACE of Christ

[Aloysius]

NO ONE's gonna touch this?

are the non-Catholics sleeping?

Pax Christi

[benedict_x]

Bravo!!

Good show my good man.

[ironmonk]

NO ONE's gonna touch this?

are the non-Catholics sleeping?

Pax Christi

Nothing is finer than standing on the vantage ground of Truth.

Doesn't it make you feel all fuzzy inside knowing that your in the Church that Christ built, without doubt....

You can go to almost any city in the world and not worry about trying to find a Church that believes what you believe, and teaches the same as you've been taught.

No major debates about this verse means this or that, no switching of morals like we have seen of late with the angelicans (how can they now possibly preach against pre-marital sex). The non-Catholic Christian churches are always changing... the netherworld attacks them and they fall.

The Catholic Church is a diamond hard Pillar, nothing can overcome her, nothing can sway her, she is guided by God's hand. God makes her wise in the faith, and keeps her on the straight and narrow, so that she can guide those who love Him to Him.

I love my Church, and all her teachings... Teachings that lead me to better myself even when I don't fully understand them, I know I will in time. Teachings that lead me to help others. The foundation of healthy society can only be found in the Catholic Church.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary,

ironmonk

Edited August 14, 2003 by ironmonk

[Aloysius]

YEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

this thread makes me giddy

it's on the debate table, but no one can debate it, it's just TOO TRUE!

Pax Christi to all and to all a good night!

[ironmonk]

Apologetics on Understaning the Church(Ekklesia)

by Michael Cumbie:

Peace be to you.

Understanding the Church? What a topic to undertake. I know it sounds presumptuous to even attempt such an article, but I beg your indulgence and prayers as I attempt to write for this publication for the first time. Most of you do not know me, even by name, so this will be our first acquaintance. Let me tell you briefly my background and then perhaps you'll understand a little better my writing on the Christian Church.

Raised in the Deep South in a strong Southern Baptist tradition, I had a strong feeling and appreciation for the Christian Faith and God's Church, or at least the church as I understood it. Most Christians understand fundamental evangelicalism and so, much explaining is not necessary. I had an experience while in college that most would understand in the context of the "Charismatic Renewal" and underwent a tremendous conversion. This experience put the first "crack", if you will, in my Southern Baptist foundation. This experience, for me, was real, and very scriptural, but not a part of Southern Baptist theology. That experience started for me a hunger that was almost insatiable. I began to wonder if the particular stripe of Christian tradition in which I was raised was complete, or accurate, on all Christian doctrine. Thus I began a fifteen year journey (actually I'm still on that journey) of searching and searching for the "fullness of truth" concerning Christianity. One of the first topics I needed some clarity of thought on, was the subject of "Church" or which "Church" is right, or is there even a right or wrong "Church?" So, I will attempt in this article, to share with you some of the things I uncovered or discovered as I began to reconsider or ponder deeply, my understanding of the Christian Church.

Let's begin by defining the word Church itself. The Greek term for church is "ekklesia" (from ek, meaning "out of" or "from": and kaleo, meaning "to call out as by a herald") I'm reminded of the town crier I used to watch as a child in movies set in England and the like. When he would come through the street ringing his bell, as the King's Herald, crying something like, "Seven o'clock and all's well". In that vein, if the King or his officials had an announcement for the community they would use the same system. For example "all interested in serving at the king's ball this Saturday evening come to the meeting at 7:00 tomorrow night" and then those who were interested would respond to that "call" and come out from where they were and attend the meeting or join themselves to this new group. In other words, there are those who respond to the call to come out, much the same as those who respond to God's call to come out from the world and follow Him.

The Church is the "called out people of God". It is the people who have heard God's call to come out from the world that stands in opposition to Him (or, more passively, without consideration of Him), and to live in relationship with the Creator and Savior of the whole world.

In the Old Testament, the Greek word ekklesia is used about 100 times, usually in reference to the "assembly" of God's people Israel. In Psalm 22:22 we read: "I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation [ekklesia] I will praise you." The faithful men and women in the Old Testament were a kind of Church of God, though they lived before the redeeming work of Christ. In the New Testament, the term ekklesia comes into its own. The new community of people who follow Jesus is called the Church. In Matthew 16:18 Jesus promises to build His church so that all the powers of hell cannot stand against it. This new community of faith, though conceived in the ministry of Christ, is not fully born until the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given to the faithful (Acts 2).

There are many Biblical names given to the Church or used to refer to this "called out people of God." In Ephesians 1:23 it's called the "Body of Christ", then in Revelation 21:2 she's called the "Bride of Christ." In I Peter 5:2 the Church is called the "Flock of God", in Ephesians 2:19 it is called the "Household of Faith", in I Peter 2:5 the "Building of God/(living) Temple" and again in I Peter 2:10 the "People of God" and a "Royal Priesthood" and finally a "Chosen Race."

Now the Orthodox ( from the Greek "orthodoxus" …ortho meaning straight, right, correct + doxus belief.) have a phrase they use when attempting to deal with other ecclesial communities: They say, " We know where the Church is, but we are not sure of where the Church is not." In other words, they are convinced that Orthodoxy is the Church, but what else is also the Church they cannot be sure. This allows them to claim the true Church without actually denying that the true Church is also to be found elsewhere. Understand that is not the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, but I'm attempting to share with you the things I studied on my way into the Church.

The Protestant tradition (birthed in the sixteenth century era of Martin Luther, and including practically every ecclesial community in western Christianity except Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism) it has been understood that there are three basic ingredients that constitute the Church: First, (they would say,) is the Preaching of God's Word: It is the very Word of God which formed the Church to begin with. Remember, the Church is the "called out people" who have responded to the call of a herald- they have heard God's Word and responded! They are, indeed, the people of the Word. Secondly, the administration of God's Sacraments: (even though we didn't call them sacraments) Jesus himself commanded his disciples to baptize and to celebrate the Lord's Table "in remembrance" of him. The Church is evidenced in the faithful continuance of these signs. And Thirdly, the discipline of God's people: There is a moral and ethical side to being "called out"; there is a behavioral response to being chosen by God. The final mark of the Church in the famous Protestant triad is that its leadership exercises authority in calling the people to live godly lives. This has been referred to as the "three-legged stool of the church". If the protestant tradition has a three-legged stool, the older catholic tradition has a four-legged stool… the next part of our discussion of the subject of God's Church will be taking apart this phrase…"One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church."

We have covered up to this point the understanding among most evangelical protestant Christians the common concept of the "church." We have learned that the church is the "called out people of God" - a group of people who have responded to His call to faith in and faithfulness to Jesus Christ. The Church, called by many names in the New Testament, has been defined ( in Reformation circles) as being found wherever:

The Word of God is faithfully preached,

The Sacraments of God are faithfully celebrated and

The discipline of God is faithfully administered.

Now we come to an even older marking which defines the Church in its fullness: " We believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church," The phrase is an ancient one, and the individual words are older still. Made memorable by its inclusion in the Nicene Creed (the ancient creed of universally accepted Christian truth), this phrase has become the classic statement of the desired qualities of the Church.

Now, let's breakdown each of these words from the Creed that compose the "marks" of the historical qualities of the Church.

One, What does it mean that the Church is One? Jesus' Prayer for the Church (St. John 17:20-23): "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." The first mark of the early Church was its unity. Although it has since fragmented into many streams, God's desire is to see those streams reassemble into a great and strong river that will flood the world.

One yet many:

In a deep spiritual sense, the Church is one, even though it is divided. While the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican and many Protestant groups are very different in their practices, doctrines an disciplines, there is still an underlying unity, seen particularly in two things:

a. Faith in Christ, and therefore spiritually the Church, and

b. Basic Christian doctrine (as expressed in the Nicene Creed).

However, the divisions that exist in the Church are not pleasing to God, and part of the work that Christians should be committed to is the long and hard work of transcending the barriers that divide us. This work is made easier by the moving of the Holy Spirit that in our generation has done so much to tear down walls between believing brothers and sisters.

Now the word, Holy. God's call for a holy Church;

In Ephesians chapter 2:19-21 we read, "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord."

Ephesians 5:25-26 goes on to say, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word."

Holiness has been given a bad name in our day. It has been misdefined as legalism. People have assumed that holiness means not playing certain games and not drinking certain drinks and not wearing certain clothes and hairstyles. Nothing could be further from the truth. When the Bible and the Church speak of being holy, the idea is being "separate". Literally, the word means to be set aside for a special purpose. This thought is related to the very word "Church" (ekklesia)- a "called out people". God has called us out of the world (the powers that stand in opposition to him), and has called us to stand over against the world. We are to live by God's standards, not fallen man's. We are to hold to God's values, not the values of our particular culture and age.

Holiness, then, is best understood as being faithful to God's revealed will as found in Holy Scriptures. Much of modern religion has sought to make the Scriptures palatable to the society of the day.

In doing so there has been a dilution of God's will and accommodation to sub-biblical norms. The mistake has been this: rather than a fresh application of God's Word to society, there has been a reinterpretation of God's Word to society. As the Church, we are not to reinterpret Scripture according to our culture. Rather, we are to bring the fresh application of God's Word to bear upon every aspect to life.

Now we come to the "biggie", CATHOLIC.

If the word holiness is much misunderstood today, then the word catholic is almost completely misunderstood. I know exactly what you would say if I were to ask you what the actual word, "catholic' means. The typical response is the word "Universal" and that is correct but that always seemed too ambiguous to me. Catholic, Simply put, does mean universal. Not just universal in territory, but universal in time. It means that the Church is for everyone, in everyplace in every time. I found in my studies that the word catholic actually comes from the Greek phrase kath' holou which means "on the whole". The first person to apply to this word to the Church was Ignatius, the disciple of St. John and Bishop of Antioch. He wrote ( in about A.D. 112), "Wherever the bishop appears, the whole congregation is to be present, just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the whole [catholic] Church (Smyrnaens 8.2).

When we say the Church is Catholic, it has several implications:

Inclusive- it is for everyone. It cannot be catholic and reject people because of race or sex or nationality. When a church refuses someone on the basis of skin color or social status or cultural differences, it loses its catholicity.

Dependent- its expression in a local congregation is not independent. An independent church should be an oxymoron. It should be a contradiction of terms. If the church is catholic, it is not locally independent, but is simply a local expression of the worldwide Church. There is therefore, a responsibility to heed the rest of the Church.

Nonsectarian- it is not distinguished by a unique doctrine or philosophy. That we all have labels is a sad commentary on the state of the Christian Community today. Ideally we should not be identified by whether we are Charismatic or Pentecostal or Baptist or Episcopal or any of the other distinctives that identify us. And even if we are identified as such, that certainly should not be the spirit we present. There should never be a we/them attitude in the Church of Jesus Christ. Now finally we come to the word Apostolic.

Apostolic, simply put, means coming from the apostles. The New Testament refers frequently to the traditions received from the apostles, and the New Testament itself is simply to collected inspired traditions of these followers of Jesus. Let's consider these verses:

I Corinthians. 11:23: "For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you…"; (received being a technical word for the transmission of tradition).

I Corinthians. 15:3: "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins for our sins, according to the Scriptures…"

Philippians 4:9: "Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me- put it into practice."

I Thessalonians. 2:13: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe."

II Timothy 1:13: "What heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you- guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

II Timothy 2:2: "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others."

Now in conclusion, let's cover three areas of Apostolicity. The Church is called to be Apostolic in Doctrine and Apostolic in Practice and Apostolic in Succession.

Apostolic in Doctrine- We must hold to the same teachings that the apostles held to and transmitted to others. This is found primarily in the New Testament, but also in the early witness of the Church Fathers. How about Apostolic in Practice- We must be committed to acting the way the apostles acted. This includes ethics and morality based on the Word of God. This also includes a developed spiritual life of prayer and openness to the moving of the Holy Spirit. And finally, Apostolic in Succession- A church that is catholic in the full sense should also be apostolic in its line of authority- that is, there should be an unbroken transmission of authority from the apostles to the present leaders. Just as Paul ordained Timothy and Timothy ordained other leaders, the continuity of ministry has continued to this present day.

With so many different groups and denominations- with so many streams, it would be true to say that the Church is faithful to these qualities in degrees. But our goal should be to work toward a fullness of these qualities "until", as St. Paul wrote, "we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:13).

So, then, let us press on towards the goal of the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus. God be with you.

[ironmonk]

Day 5...

Smokey the bear says "You too can be Catholic."

God Bless,

ironmonk