Catholic Singles -- Why Such A Hot Topic In The Church?

[Socrates]

Continuing the hijack . . .

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1829855' date='Apr 9 2009, 09:40 AM']Taking writing lessons from Madame Vinegar, are we? [/quote]
No. I'm taking writing lessons from your mom.

[quote]Yes, they too put their politics above their faith. I'm just speaking from my obserations, and I see the people who strongly identify with either political side find ways to justify their stance using their faith instead of simply following their faith. There are a number of pet liberal causes (abolishing capital punishment, protecting the environment, etc.) that politically conservative Catholics are reluctant to get behind because it makes them appear less conservative (at least that seems to be the reason).[/quote]
I agree that we shouldn't put politics above our Faith.

However, your original statement wasn't about Catholics putting their politics above their Faith; it was:[quote][b]The conservative political agenda (as a whole) is incompatible with Catholicism[/b], so I'm not sure how that's a good thing for them or anybody.[/quote]
Such a statement implies that a faithful Catholic can't be a political conservative, an idea with which I strongly disagree.

I'd say the problem is not strong political conservatism, but simply Catholics not putting their Faith first, period - a problem which runs across all political ideologies and lack thereof.

I believe that there exist cases in which capital punishment is necessary to satisfy both justice and the public safety. (And, btw, the Church has NEVER taught that it is morally necessary to abolish capital punishment, but that's a whole debate in itself.) I'm also for protecting the environment, but I also believe that most socialistic boondoggles proposed by liberals in the name of "saving the environment" will in reality do little other than increase the size and scope of government at great expense to both individual freedom and the economy. (Again, a whole other debate.)

Of course your statement can apply just as easily to liberals or "moderates" - How many liberals don't get behind "conservative" causes such as pro-life legislation or candidates because it would make them appear less liberal? Or how many "moderates" avoid such causes for fear of being seen as a "right-wing extremist"?

As a shameful majority of self-proclaimed "Catholics" voted for the fanatically pro-abortion Barrack Obama last presidential election (and not all them die-hard "liberals" either), I think laying blame on conservatives in the Church is a bit misplaced.

And I'm afraid that the "moderate" and politically lukewarm "Catholics" who rallied around Obama are certainly no less to blame than strong self-identified "conservatives" and "liberals."


[quote]All 1% of you... good job [/quote]
I gave reasons for voting McCain - I believe the damage Obama will do to the pro-life cause is simply too great and lasting.
And the "1%" (not sure where that number came from) who voted third-party were generally [i]more[/i] conservative than the McCain voters, so it's a bit silly to blame too much conservatism as the "problem" behind people voting for McCain.
As you apparently are unwilling or unable to defend your own vote in that election, you have absolutely no right to be wagging your finger at "conservatives" for how we voted.


[quote]My issue is with political identification. Most of us are registered with a political party and lean towards one party or the other for various reasons, but it's quite another thing to champion the conservative/Republican or liberal/Democrat cause to the point that other people can't tell if you love your politics or your Church and faith more.


What side I'm on isn't the point, yet for conservatives and liberals, that seems to be all that matters. Why is it that a Catholic who is against abortion, embryonic stem cell research, and IVF yet for whatever reason voted Obama sooner an enemy than another Catholic who favors research on embryos and IVF and voted for McCain sooner a friend? When you look at the beliefs of voters on either side, there is such a disparity that it just seems ridiculous to boil it all down to which way the vote went.[/quote]
The issue is not who is a friend or enemy, but that a vote for an actively pro-abortion politician like Obama is objectively a bad and destructive vote from the Catholic standpoint, period.
This is a politician whose pro-abortion views are hardly hidden, and who will not just protect the status quo, but actively do all in his power to promote abortion.

While I realize this will likely provoke an outcry from more than a few of the pious folks on Phatmass, I will venture to say that any "Catholic who is against abortion, embryonic stem cell research, and IVF" yet for whatever reason voted Obama is either:
A) a blatant hypocrite, putting politics above his Faith in his vote,
or
B) willfully ignorant of Obama's policies and/or the Church's teachings on the life issues through his own sloth
or
C) mentally defective and/or functionally illiterate, and thus has no business choosing our nation's leaders

And no, I would certainly not consider someone who voted for McCain or a pro-life candidate any better than the Obama-voter if he promotes abortion by doing such things as donating money to PP or paying for or encouraging others to get abortions.

[quote]I never called anyone "dumb" or used any derogatory language against anyone. You're reading into what I'm saying by the mere fact that I don't agree with you.[/quote]It's the generally snide, condescending tone of much of your posts that I was responding to. If I misread your tone, I apologize.

[quote]That's probably because they are Catholic first and conservative second. Those who are conservative first and Catholic second are easily confused with issues like IVF and even embryonic stem cell research because people make slick "pro-life" arguments in favor of them, and if the Church doesn't come first, you're on your own.[/quote]
Many are led to political conservatism [i]because of[/i] their Catholic morals. I know a number of formerly staunch Democrats who became conservative after witnessing their party's rabid support of the Party of Death.

And how many left-leaning or "moderate" Catholics are easily confused by slick "pro-life" arguments for supporting blatantly pro-abortion politicians because their socialistic spending policies will allegedly "end the need for abortion"?

Again, the problem is not strong conservatism, but "Catholics" not putting Faith first.

As neither embryonic stem-cell research nor IVF are generally regarded as conservative causes, putting the blame on a conservative agenda is dumb.

[quote]I don't know... it's difficult to discern that because of these mixed allegiances. While it's probably accurate to say a conservative Catholic is more likely to be obedient to the Church, I often wonder if such people are faithful to the Church because it's convenient to their political ideology rather than the other way around.[/quote]
Best to leave God to judge interior motives.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote]Political conservatives are, by and large, in favor of capital punishment, careless about the environment, and consider improved healthcare for those in poverty and the third world to be relatively low priorities (or at least they don't make a strong case that combats this well established image).[/quote]
Again, conservatives disagree with liberals that more tax-and-spend government programs are the best means to help the environment and the poor. You're free to disagree with us, of course, but that doesn't mean our views are "contrary to Catholicism" as you claim.
And regarding capital punishment, by your standards the views of Saint Thomas Aquinas and basically every Pope prior to John Paul II must be regarded as "contrary to Catholicism."

And such issues as health care and "the environment" can never be used to justify supporting blatantly pro-abortion politicians like Obama.

[quote][b]Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. [/b]For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.[b] There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/b][/quote]Obviously written by a conservative lackey of the Republican party . . . Oh wait, that was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, writing as Prefect of the CDF!

[quote]I only used that word to light somebody's fire... and it worked [/quote]So, you're interested in trolling rather than interested in honest debate/dialogue?

Edited April 14, 2009 by Socrates

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1834423' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:22 PM']However, your original statement wasn't about Catholics putting their politics above their Faith; it was:
Such a statement implies that a faithful Catholic can't be a political conservative, an idea with which I strongly disagree.[/quote]

To clarify my statement, it's that conservative politics (at least what it means today in the U.S.) is not a proxy for Catholic beliefs. There are very important issues that, while not as important as the dignity of human life, are still pretty darn important, where a Catholic can genuinely lean more to the left. Maybe it isn't enough to justify voting for Obama, but I think our basis should be our Faith, not the Republican Party or conservative talk radio or whatever. By identifying myself as "conservative," then I'm allying myself with people whom I disagree with on some issues. Rather, I could simply be Catholic and call myself Catholic and know for a fact that I agree with the Church and that's it. Why bother with any other labels?

Maybe that's too idealistic... maybe my idealism makes me a bad conservative

[quote name='Cam42' post='1833839' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:26 PM']Of course your statement can apply just as easily to liberals or "moderates" - How many liberals don't get behind "conservative" causes such as pro-life legislation or candidates because it would make them appear less liberal? Or how many "moderates" avoid such causes for fear of being seen as a "right-wing extremist"?[/quote]

Exactly the problem... why take our cues from politicians and pundits? Maybe some of them have good things to say, but most of them seem more concerned with putting down their opponents and justifying themselves at all costs. I see it in the way that nearly every person I know who has strong political allegiances either direction insults the people on the other side. I don't want any part of that... prefer to participate in thinks like 40 Days for Life and be a faithful witness to my family and friends and leave politics aside, except for what's minimally necessary to participate in the democratic process.

[quote name='Cam42' post='1833839' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:26 PM']As a shameful majority of self-proclaimed "Catholics" voted for the fanatically pro-abortion Barrack Obama last presidential election (and not all them die-hard "liberals" either), I think laying blame on conservatives in the Church is a bit misplaced.[/quote]

Of course, most of them weren't consciously voting for abortion. Maybe they were voting for universal health care (and maybe they're even willing to pay the price in higher taxes) or voting against the Iraqi war... just to throw two things out there.

[quote name='Cam42' post='1833839' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:26 PM']And the "1%" (not sure where that number came from) who voted third-party were generally [i]more[/i] conservative than the McCain voters, so it's a bit silly to blame too much conservatism as the "problem" behind people voting for McCain.[/quote]

[url="http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/"]Here[/url] are the election results. 53% voted for Obama. 46% voted for McCain. That leaves 1% voting third party.


[quote name='Cam42' post='1833839' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:26 PM']As you apparently are unwilling or unable to defend your own vote in that election, you have absolutely no right to be wagging your finger at "conservatives" for how we voted.[/quote]

If I voted for McCain-Palin, do I need to defend my vote?

[quote name='Cam42' post='1833839' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:26 PM']While I realize this will likely provoke an outcry from more than a few of the pious folks on Phatmass, I will venture to say that any "Catholic who is against abortion, embryonic stem cell research, and IVF" yet for whatever reason voted Obama is either:
A) a blatant hypocrite, putting politics above his Faith in his vote,
or
B) willfully ignorant of Obama's policies and/or the Church's teachings on the life issues through his own sloth
or
C) mentally defective and/or functionally illiterate, and thus has no business choosing our nation's leaders[/quote]

Yet those aren't the reasons I hear from people who voted for Obama...

And you really believe some citizens in good standing (i.e. non-felons) don't deserve the right to vote?

[quote name='Cam42' post='1833839' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:26 PM']It's the generally snide, condescending tone of much of your posts that I was responding to. If I misread your tone, I apologize.[/quote]

I don't mean to come across that way... I think it's the sensitivity of the topic that makes things sounds snide and condescending.

[quote name='Cam42' post='1833839' date='Apr 13 2009, 03:26 PM']So, you're interested in trolling rather than interested in honest debate/dialogue?[/quote]

You're the self proclaimed pirate...

[southern california guy]

Well I guess I'll finally say something. Socrates was right I was getting a little carried away when I sort of started attacking Catholic discipline of celibacy -- but you know I guess that deep down I don't really support it... And it probably would be wise for me not to be so open.. But like I said "Nobody ever accused me of being a genius!"..

And Picchick is fishing [i]really[/i] a sport? I would almost describe it more in terms of being a "leisure activity" Unless you're talking about fly fishing. But I suppose that it could be classed along with hunting. Now today -- being my day off -- I went ice skating (There's an indoor rink I go to) and worked out at the gym a little. I'm thinking about taking up hockey. Now that is a [b]sport[/b]! A "team sport"

Anyway I've been busy trying to buy a house. The housing market down here in California is crazy. You can buy foreclosed houses down here for under $200,000 that originally sold for over $500,000. I'm trying for a pretty cool house but I don't know what my chances really are. But there are so many that I'll probably eventually get something. However I'm trying for some of the choicer houses with around an acre of property (That's what you can do when you're a wealthy guy who drives a truck for a high status garbage disposal service! Who would've guessed? )

I don't know. I guess I'm just lonely and I'm a little frustrated by the Catholic church. I probably will go for the Protestant church instead. I'm not a very good Catholic anyway.. I miss Mass all the time. I never go to confession.. And I even admit to slightly despising "good" Catholics who do thing like "fool around" -- then run off to confession (Yeah that ought to really fix it! It's not like there are other potential consequences -- even beyond pregnancy. God forbid. ). And I strangely seem to have much more "conservative" principles in my personal life than many so-called "good" Catholics who are divorced, have annulled marriages, are pro-abortion, and live with their "girlfriend"/"boyfriend"... I just don't fit in with the group. And I am not going to date any more former nuns! And without going into too much details I dated two and they were both just, lets say, completely different than me in perspective. I'm not sure that I'm really that Catholic.

And yet... I moved to Utah to try and get away from the "liberals" in California. And that was a failure too... I think I'd rather live next door to "liberals" even though I tend to side with the "conservatives" on most issues. I'm in the weird position where I can empathize both with the criticisms of "conservative" as well as "liberals"....

Edited April 14, 2009 by southern california guy

[Norseman82]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 PM']I probably will go for the Protestant church instead.[/quote]

Now don't do that...you wouldn't want a cross-check from my avatar, would you???

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 PM']I'm not a very good Catholic anyway.. I miss Mass all the time. I never go to confession..[/quote]

Simple solution - stop missing Mass....get to confession.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 PM']And I even admit to slightly despising "good" Catholics who do thing like "fool around" -- then run off to confession (Yeah that ought to really fix it! It's not like there are other potential consequences -- even beyond pregnancy.[/quote]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 PM']And I strangely seem to have much more "conservative" principles in my personal life than many so-called "good" Catholics who are divorced, have annulled marriages, are pro-abortion, and live with their "girlfriend"/"boyfriend"... I just don't fit in with the group. And I am not going to date any more former nuns! And without going into too much details I dated two and they were both just, lets say, completely different than me in perspective. I'm not sure that I'm really that Catholic.[/quote]

Well, I don't fit into that group either, and I'm sure that the vast majority of people here don't either. So you are in good company. I'm not trying to be snarky or judgmental, [b]I'm just saying don't give up[/b]. Trust me, as someone in your age demographic (who took up hockey as an adult, BTW), I have felt some of the 40-ish bachelor cynicism you have.

Let me ask you again something I asked you previously: Have you kept in contact with any of the locals you met at the NCSC?

__Yes

__No

Or, for that matter, maybe some of the people who went on the mission trip with you are from your area and can serve as a contact in your area?

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1834508' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:21 PM']To clarify my statement, it's that conservative politics (at least what it means today in the U.S.) is not a proxy for Catholic beliefs. There are very important issues that, while not as important as the dignity of human life, are still pretty darn important, where a Catholic can genuinely lean more to the left. Maybe it isn't enough to justify voting for Obama, but I think our basis should be our Faith, not the Republican Party or conservative talk radio or whatever. By identifying myself as "conservative," then I'm allying myself with people whom I disagree with on some issues. Rather, I could simply be Catholic and call myself Catholic and know for a fact that I agree with the Church and that's it. Why bother with any other labels?[/quote]
I never claimed that one is required to hold conservative political beliefs in all things to be Catholic, or that Catholics must label themselves "conservative."
There are many issues on which Catholics in good standing can hold a diversity of beliefs regarding. For instance, there are Catholics with whom I vehemently disagree on economic matters and such; however I don't call their Catholicity into question.

What you are saying here is quite different from your initial statement that for the most part being politically conservative is "incompatible with Catholicism."
That statement is what I took issue with.
You neither retract nor successfully defend that claim, but keep shifting the subject.

[quote]Maybe that's too idealistic... maybe my idealism makes me a bad conservative [/quote]Don't worry, you'll outgrow it.


[quote]Exactly the problem... why take our cues from politicians and pundits? Maybe some of them have good things to say, but most of them seem more concerned with putting down their opponents and justifying themselves at all costs. I see it in the way that nearly every person I know who has strong political allegiances either direction insults the people on the other side. I don't want any part of that... prefer to participate in thinks like 40 Days for Life and be a faithful witness to my family and friends and leave politics aside, except for what's minimally necessary to participate in the democratic process.[/quote]
I'm fully capable of holding my conservative beliefs without politicians or pundits telling me what to think (can't speak for the Left, though).
I don't think everybody has to be heavily involved in politics, but I think some people need to keep up the good fight. If all good principled Catholics basically abandon politics except for the bare minimum, politics will be left entirely to the absolute worst people (in both parties).
That will merely insure that the already abysmal political situation will continue its decline.
Quite frankly, I think we need [i]more[/i] conservatives in politics not afraid of controversy and strongly standing up for principle (like the Texas governor), and less spineless compromise.

[quote]Of course, most of them weren't consciously voting for abortion. Maybe they were voting for universal health care (and maybe they're even willing to pay the price in higher taxes) or voting against the Iraqi war... just to throw two things out there.[/quote]
Perhaps, but the the fact remains that Obama is an extremely pro-abortion politician, and anyone who bothers to do the smallest modicum of research into his voting records and promises knows that.
The fact also remains that the Church clearly teaches the importance and primacy of the life issues, and that such things as one's opinions on health care or the war can NEVER trump abortion as a moral issue. (See my previous CDF quote from Card. Ratzinger)

The fact is that such voters (whatever their rationale for voting for Obama might be) were putting their Faith and moral issues last when they cast their vote.
In other words, they put their politics before their Faith.

(You should read Archbishop Chaput's recent damning speech regarding American "Catholics" and the election. As he said, most "just don't care" about moral issues.)


[quote][url="http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/"]Here[/url] are the election results. 53% voted for Obama. 46% voted for McCain. That leaves 1% voting third party.[/quote]
I didn't mean to deny that number, I just wasn't sure of the source. However, from my observations, I'm sure the figure was somewhat higher among hardcore conservative Catholic voters (who themselves make up a small percentage of the overall voting population).

[quote]If I voted for McCain-Palin, do I need to defend my vote?[/quote]
No, but then criticizing "conservatives" for voting the same way you did is a little . . . bizarre.


[quote]Yet those aren't the reasons I hear from people who voted for Obama...[/quote]
I'm sure they're not.
However, what I said still stands.

Obama's pro-abortion record and statements are easily accessible.
The Church plainly teaches that Catholics must never support pro-abortion politicians.

Obama-voting "Catholics" either blatantly ignored what the Church teaches, or were too lazy to pay attention to either the Church's teachings and/or Obama's stance.

Politics before Faith.
Catholic moral considerations were placed on the back burner.

[quote]And you really believe some citizens in good standing (i.e. non-felons) don't deserve the right to vote?[/quote]
I don't think it's currently politically-practicable to deny votes to any citizens, but quite frankly anyone who who is either too lazy or too stupid to find out where a candidate stands on the major issues, and votes purely on who looks prettiest on TV, or their skin color, or whom "everyone else" is voting for, shouldn't be voting. (And unfortunately, I think a large percentage of the public does in fact vote this way) Their vote is not a meaningful contribution to our democracy, but a waste of their time. They should stay home.
I'm sure many on both the left and right can share my disgust at the vapid beauty contest political elections have become.


[quote]I don't mean to come across that way... I think it's the sensitivity of the topic that makes things sounds snide and condescending.



You're the self proclaimed pirate... [/quote]
I hijack, but never troll, matie!

Edited April 15, 2009 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:03 PM']Well I guess I'll finally say something. Socrates was right I was getting a little carried away when I sort of started attacking Catholic discipline of celibacy -- but you know I guess that deep down I don't really support it... And it probably would be wise for me not to be so open.. But like I said "Nobody ever accused me of being a genius!"..

And Picchick is fishing [i]really[/i] a sport? I would almost describe it more in terms of being a "leisure activity" Unless you're talking about fly fishing. But I suppose that it could be classed along with hunting. Now today -- being my day off -- I went ice skating (There's an indoor rink I go to) and worked out at the gym a little. I'm thinking about taking up hockey. Now that is a [b]sport[/b]! A "team sport"

Anyway I've been busy trying to buy a house. The housing market down here in California is crazy. You can buy foreclosed houses down here for under $200,000 that originally sold for over $500,000. I'm trying for a pretty cool house but I don't know what my chances really are. But there are so many that I'll probably eventually get something. However I'm trying for some of the choicer houses with around an acre of property (That's what you can do when you're a wealthy guy who drives a truck for a high status garbage disposal service! Who would've guessed? )

I don't know. I guess I'm just lonely and I'm a little frustrated by the Catholic church. I probably will go for the Protestant church instead. I'm not a very good Catholic anyway.. I miss Mass all the time. I never go to confession.. And I even admit to slightly despising "good" Catholics who do thing like "fool around" -- then run off to confession (Yeah that ought to really fix it! It's not like there are other potential consequences -- even beyond pregnancy. God forbid. ). And I strangely seem to have much more "conservative" principles in my personal life than many so-called "good" Catholics who are divorced, have annulled marriages, are pro-abortion, and live with their "girlfriend"/"boyfriend"... I just don't fit in with the group. And I am not going to date any more former nuns! And without going into too much details I dated two and they were both just, lets say, completely different than me in perspective. I'm not sure that I'm really that Catholic.

And yet... I moved to Utah to try and get away from the "liberals" in California. And that was a failure too... I think I'd rather live next door to "liberals" even though I tend to side with the "conservatives" on most issues. I'm in the weird position where I can empathize both with the criticisms of "conservative" as well as "liberals".... [/quote]
Getting back from the hijack . . .

I think you ought to take Norseman's advice.

The central issue is do you believe the Catholic Church is indeed the One, True Church founded by Jesus Christ on the Rock of Peter?
If so, you'd do well to heed her commands.

Not to sound "judgmental," but I sense a lot of pride. While you "despise" Catholics who fool around and then go to confession, maybe you need to first remove the plank in your own eye. Willfully missing Sunday mass without good reason is no less sinful than fornication in the eyes of the Church.
At least those you despise have the humility to recognize the need for God's forgiveness. (And yes, sinning and then blithely going to confession to "make it all okay" without true repentance is a bad attitude, but we should examine our own conscience before judging the hearts of others. And being scornful of God's mercy being shown to those we consider "worse" than ourselves is certainly not a virtuous spiritual attitude.)

Perhaps you don't see anything really wrong with willfully missing Sunday Mass, but then also a lot of people don't see anything wrong with fornication. By your standards, why shouldn't they just go and join some liberal congregation that's perfectly okay with fornication?

If everybody just picks and chooses a church in order to go along with his own feelings and opinions, what's the point?
It becomes every man for himself, with no teaching authority.

I recommend you check out the apologetics section on this site, and do research into why the Catholic Church is the True Church founded by Christ, then do some long, hard thinking.

Are you seeking to conform your life to Christ's Church, or are you instead seeking a Church that conforms to your own opinions?

I'm not making light of your frustations, and I've heard plenty of horror stories about the Church in California (not a place to help one's Faith, for sure).
And I think we conservative Catholics tend to be a bit different from the Mormons in Utah, too.

Edited April 15, 2009 by Socrates

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1834989' date='Apr 14 2009, 12:34 AM']Let me ask you again something I asked you previously: Have you kept in contact with any of the locals you met at the NCSC?

__Yes

__No

Or, for that matter, maybe some of the people who went on the mission trip with you are from your area and can serve as a contact in your area?[/quote]

I actually didn't keep in contact with any of the locals. I thought that I could find them again by going to Saint Brigid -- but I wasn't able too.

However I did go to a "Singles Serving Orphans" fundraiser dinner and got to see some of the people from the mission trip again. That was great!

It's kind of an unusual situation down here with the Catholic church. This "Saint Brigid" Catholic church in Pacific Beach has really made "Young Adults" their thing. They have an enormous "Young Adults" group. They get hundreds coming to the Sunday Mass and some events. Basically all of the locals that I met at the NCSC go there.

It turned out that there were a number things involved with the age segregation at that church (I'm not allowed to most events). The biggest issue Is that the church can simply handle so many people. They want to get a lot of young Catholics. And some of the young women are intimidated by the older guys -- but not the older women. If anything older women make the younger women feel more secure in the group. So the older women are not restricted the way that the guys are. And by kicking the older guys out they also keep the size of the group a little more manageable.

----------

Also some of the older women don't like some of the older guys socializing with the younger women. A friend of a friend from the Mission Trip told me that she really likes this guy in his fifties who used to help out with the Young Adults -- but they kicked him out.. They didn't like him hanging out with her. Of course she told me this when I took her out on a date... So I guess she was sort of giving me a hint..

----------

Even the Sunday afternoon Mass at Saint Brigid is really intended primarily for the "Young Adults". Except that they can't really exclude the guys in their forties from that. And the "bible studies" are also age segregated -- to get more "Young Adults" involved.

Of course single guys in their forties are attracted to Saint Brigid because there are so many single women there in their thirties and forties there (Even if they're purposely kept away from the women).

The Monsignor, Father, and the Deacon don't really want to do "singles" activities because that might attract more "older" guys (And older guys might scare off the younger women, right?) and they don't really have room for that many people.

I think that part of the reason that they age segregate the so called "Adult Community" (35-55) is partly to keep it smaller and more manageable.

I think that it's too bad that the Catholics don't do at least some "singles" events -- at some of the larger churches down here -- and give them enough publicity that the word gets out and people find out about them.

In order for Catholic singles events to succeed down here it would take a lot of effort with publicity. Just getting the word out in all of the various Catholic churches. There's a need to pull the various Catholic singles events together for bigger groups. There are "meetup.com" groups that do this sort of thing. The groups get together -- and some of the events have turnouts of over one hundred people.

If I get the house I'm trying to buy I may try getting together with some friends and hosting some Catholic get togethers. Maybe some small ones, maybe some big ones. But spreading the word around is the real trick. That's where networking with friends is a good idea.

Edited April 15, 2009 by southern california guy

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 14 2009, 12:03 AM']Well I guess I'll finally say something. Socrates was right I was getting a little carried away when I sort of started attacking Catholic discipline of celibacy -- but you know I guess that deep down I don't really support it... And it probably would be wise for me not to be so open.. But like I said "Nobody ever accused me of being a genius!".. [/quote]

We aren't required to support the discipline of celibacy as a normal requirement for priesthood, so if you think it's not a good idea, that's fine. Your opinion needs to come from good reasoning though. If it's merely a reaction against abuses you've witnessed, it's not going to hold much water with time. After all, the psychological issues behind abusive situations cut across people of all vocations and lifestyles. I would be surprised if you haven't heard a few stories from Protestants about abuse by ministers... I heard of a case just two days ago of a girl getting raped by one of the drummer in the music ministry at her church. Sin is everywhere.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 14 2009, 12:03 AM']I don't know. I guess I'm just lonely and I'm a little frustrated by the Catholic church. I probably will go for the Protestant church instead. I'm not a very good Catholic anyway.. I miss Mass all the time. I never go to confession.. And I even admit to slightly despising "good" Catholics who do thing like "fool around" -- then run off to confession (Yeah that ought to really fix it! It's not like there are other potential consequences -- even beyond pregnancy. God forbid. ). And I strangely seem to have much more "conservative" principles in my personal life than many so-called "good" Catholics who are divorced, have annulled marriages, are pro-abortion, and live with their "girlfriend"/"boyfriend"... I just don't fit in with the group. And I am not going to date any more former nuns! And without going into too much details I dated two and they were both just, lets say, completely different than me in perspective. I'm not sure that I'm really that Catholic.[/quote]

Pardon my French, but what the hell is a "good Catholic?"

Besides, do you really think the behavior among Protestants is that much better? You stick around long enough and you'll find there isn't much difference... sin is everywhere. But Reconciliation and holiness are found in Christ alone. You start looking around at your fellow sinners for what only Jesus can give, and you'll end up sorely disappointed. Give St. Paul's letters a read... look at all the sin that existed even in the early Church. Drunkeness, debauchery, incest, adultery, prejudice... no doubt about it: Those were Catholics!

Granted, some people through grace attain a level of virtue and holiness that clearly sets them apart, but even in them it is Christ that we see. If you see anybody other than Christ in a "holy" person, that is [i]not[/i] a holy person.

Point being, when you talk about attending Mass and going to Confession, it's clear that you're stuck in a works-based view of salvation. Doing that stuff is not how you become holy. It's only be the grace received through them... the stuff is merely a sign God gives us to help us know that his grace is present. If you are relying on anything other than grace, you're on sinking sand.

By the way, one of the women at my parish is a former sister... happily married for most of her life It's not what we've done or failed at that are important... look at how God is working in someone's life and how they are growing. We have to continually open ourselves to God in the same way.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1834638' date='Apr 14 2009, 12:03 AM']And yet... I moved to Utah to try and get away from the "liberals" in California. And that was a failure too... I think I'd rather live next door to "liberals" even though I tend to side with the "conservatives" on most issues. I'm in the weird position where I can empathize both with the criticisms of "conservative" as well as "liberals".... [/quote]

I feel ya there... sounds like California is just a lonely place in general. I don't know anybody, really, who has enjoyed living in SoCal. One of my college roommates was from LA... I hear of more people being glad to leave that area than being glad to go there, unless they're trying to get into the music or movie industry. I guess there are lonely people everywhere... you remind me of a friend of mine who moved back to Kentucky after a divorce. He's been everything from Evangelical to Catholic (nothing less than the Tridentine Mass) to Orthodox and he hasn't gone to church at all for the past two months. He doesn't know who or what to trust, though he claims to believe in Christ, but I have a feeling he may fall away entirely from Christianity.

[LouisvilleFan]

That St. Brigid place is the Seventh Circle of Hades.

...if you wanted my opinion...

[Norseman82]

First, I'm going to PM you a link to the NCSC Yahoo group where people sometimes send emails to keep in contact with other attendees. If you are not already aware of it, you may use it to try to re-establish contact with attendees fromyour San Diego conference.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1835779' date='Apr 14 2009, 11:08 PM']It's kind of an unusual situation down here with the Catholic church. This "Saint Brigid" Catholic church in Pacific Beach has really made "Young Adults" their thing. They have an enormous "Young Adults" group. They get hundreds coming to the Sunday Mass and some events. Basically all of the locals that I met at the NCSC go there.

It turned out that there were a number things involved with the age segregation at that church (I'm not allowed to most events). The biggest issue Is that the church can simply handle so many people. They want to get a lot of young Catholics. And some of the young women are intimidated by the older guys -- but not the older women. If anything older women make the younger women feel more secure in the group. So the older women are not restricted the way that the guys are. And by kicking the older guys out they also keep the size of the group a little more manageable.

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Also some of the older women don't like some of the older guys socializing with the younger women. A friend of a friend from the Mission Trip told me that she really likes this guy in his fifties who used to help out with the Young Adults -- but they kicked him out.. They didn't like him hanging out with her. Of course she told me this when I took her out on a date... So I guess she was sort of giving me a hint..

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Even the Sunday afternoon Mass at Saint Brigid is really intended primarily for the "Young Adults". Except that they can't really exclude the guys in their forties from that. And the "bible studies" are also age segregated -- to get more "Young Adults" involved.

Of course single guys in their forties are attracted to Saint Brigid because there are so many single women there in their thirties and forties there (Even if they're purposely kept away from the women).

The Monsignor, Father, and the Deacon don't really want to do "singles" activities because that might attract more "older" guys (And older guys might scare off the younger women, right?) and they don't really have room for that many people.

I think that part of the reason that they age segregate the so called "Adult Community" (35-55) is partly to keep it smaller and more manageable.

I think that it's too bad that the Catholics don't do at least some "singles" events -- at some of the larger churches down here -- and give them enough publicity that the word gets out and people find out about them.

In order for Catholic singles events to succeed down here it would take a lot of effort with publicity. Just getting the word out in all of the various Catholic churches. There's a need to pull the various Catholic singles events together for bigger groups. There are "meetup.com" groups that do this sort of thing. The groups get together -- and some of the events have turnouts of over one hundred people.

If I get the house I'm trying to buy I may try getting together with some friends and hosting some Catholic get togethers. Maybe some small ones, maybe some big ones. But spreading the word around is the real trick. That's where networking with friends is a good idea.[/quote]

That is a complaint I've heard locally as well - "We're kicked out when we turn 40 and we haven't found anyone to marry yet". I think that we need to be agressive about this and ask bluntly "Hey, what is the 40-year old virgin crowd supposed to do to find compatible Catholic spouses?"

Anastasia Northrup and the NCSC seem to be the only group that has a clue about this issue (with the possible exception of some Catholic online dating sites).

[LouisvilleFan]

Hang out with married people and you'll learn there's a little more to life than finding a spouse...

[Norseman82]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1852189' date='Apr 29 2009, 11:19 AM']Hang out with married people and you'll learn there's a little more to life than finding a spouse...[/quote]

But in order to become married one has to find a spouse first...

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1852483' date='Apr 29 2009, 07:11 PM']But in order to become married one has to find a spouse first...[/quote]

I didn't say get married Hang around other people who are married and your attitude toward marriage will become a little more realistic, which will make you a better spouse should God have that in store for you.

Otherwise, enjoy life and enjoy whatever God grants you because every vocation and lifestyle is a cross and a joy for different reasons. Wasting your single days worrying about not having a spouse takes the joy out of life and it'll take the joy out of marriage should you ever be married, as you've set yourself in a habit of wanting what you don't have.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1852512' date='Apr 29 2009, 04:53 PM']I didn't say get married Hang around other people who are married and your attitude toward marriage will become a little more realistic, which will make you a better spouse should God have that in store for you.

Otherwise, enjoy life and enjoy whatever God grants you because every vocation and lifestyle is a cross and a joy for different reasons. Wasting your single days worrying about not having a spouse takes the joy out of life and it'll take the joy out of marriage should you ever be married, as you've set yourself in a habit of wanting what you don't have.[/quote]

Yeah, but people who are married don't tend to have the time to hang out... Pretty soon they have kids and real responsibilities.

And you need to remember that I lived in Utah "The married state". People got married young there. Basically ALL of my friends were married. It was finding singles to hang out with that wasn't so easy.

I'm not sure that I would call what I'm doing "worrying" about not having a spouse. I enjoy spending time actively looking for the right women. I enjoy dating, socializing, sports. And while not all of these activities involve strictly singles -- I'm always looking.