Catholic Singles -- Why Such A Hot Topic In The Church?

[southern california guy]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1819612' date='Mar 29 2009, 12:16 PM']That's obviously an admirable idea... I just don't see why it has to be a singles group. If a married person or couple wants to join in your ministry, are you going to deny them because they aren't single? They may not have as much time, but they bring other strengths like stability and a greater sense of commitment, along with their wisdom gained from experience. Why not welcome religious or priests to work with you too? All these people were single at one point, so if the goal is to help singles grow and discern their vocation, shouldn't you involve those who have walked that path successfully?[/quote]

The Monsignor tenatively gave me approval to start a charitable singles ministry. He's going to have the Deacon, who coordinates the ministries, contact me. I like the idea because it would give us singles (And I suppose any married people who'd like to help) the chance to mingle and do something productive at the same time. I figure that even if we don't meet somebody who we'd like to marry, or even just be friends with, at least we will be doing something positive and helpful to others -- so it will be a win win situation!

I am going to suggest that we do things like get a group together to work with Habitat for Humanity, help out with soup kitchens, hold food drives, help out at homeless shelters, help work on orphanages in Mexico (There aren't any orphanages in the US anymore) etc.

If this actually works out I'll be one of the people running it and I will definitely open it to any married couples who'd like to help out -- but it will be primarily for singles who have the time money, and perhaps the need to go out and do charitable acts for others that would allow them to get "outside" themselves for a little bit.

Edited March 29, 2009 by southern california guy

[jmjtina]

awesome!

we have this in our diocese. There is the monthly Theology on Tap (everyone is invited but it is geared for singles) which is awesome. We've done service projects, had party on the patios, etc. There has been one married couple-they are welcome, (anyone is) but they help out the person in charge. And they can't come together all the time-they have kids.

We have had semmies attend, a nun or two, and priests who give talks will bring priest friends. But the majority is singles. It's great. We had Judy McDonald give the first one and it was HALIRIOUS. Guys walk into the pub and she says, "Come on in. We are a bunch of Catholics.....and Oh yeah, your mom called. She said go back to church!" They were great sports and stayed and talked.

anyway, great stuff. Keep it up. And advertise and stay consistent!!!!!

[Socrates]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1818943' date='Mar 28 2009, 08:15 PM']Yes, and I'm arguing that's the problem... I've explained below. Here's a question to think about along the way:

When you get married, what will you do in your time away from your wife?[/quote]
Probably more or less the same things I'd do single.

Not quite sure what your point is, though. Nobody's arguing that one should simply try to marry any Catholic single woman he can, without regard for other considerations, nor is anyone arguing that one's existence should have no focus beyond finding a spouse and getting married.


[quote]Our faith is our most valued possession, but not faith alone. Through our faith, God is calling us to a greater mission: praying and fighting for the unborn, serving the homeless and families in poverty, teaching, parish ministry, etc. Our vocation (marriage, priesthood, religious life, and our time of singleness beforehand) are the means by which we serve Christ in the good works he has prepared for us. Marriage, priesthood, or whatever are not in and of themselves the good works, but a Christian identity that shapes how we work for God. That's why a ministry focused on getting married is unhealthy, just as a ministry focused on becoming a priest or religious is unhealthy. God is our destination; vocation is simply the vehicle he gives us. Why busy ourselves shopping for the vehicle while neglecting the destination?[/quote]
That's all very true, except for the part about ministries focusing on marriage or the priesthood being "unhealthy." That's simply your own opinion, and I disagree. Obviously, for the Catholic, both getting married, and becoming a priest are holy and important goals, and ministries that can help facilitate finding one's vocation are good things, if done properly. There's nothing wrong, for instance, with a group or event for boys/men considering a vocation to the priesthood to help them consider this vocation and talk to priests, learn about seminaries, etc.
Neither is there anything intrinsically wrong about events or sites/groups geared toward singles considering a vocation to marriage.


[quote]I originally got involved in a college Christian ministry to meet girls. Did I eventually (after two years) find someone? Yes, though it didn't last long. But did I consider my "mission" a failure because I wasn't dating much? By no means... because God showed me greater things through learning how to study Scripture, how to pray, and grow in virtue and confidence. I've learned that life isn't about meeting "the one" and the sooner we find other things to live for and pursue, the happier we are.

So, the point to attending a gun show (or whatever you might like to do) is not to meet women. You go because that is what interests you and for that reason you enjoy socializing and building friendships with other people who share your interest.[/quote]
So what's wrong with socializing and building friendships with other people who share your Catholic Faith? That's basically what a Catholic singles group is for.
It's dumb to claim that going to a Catholic group is too "insular," while going to a gathering of people with an interest in guns, a sport, or what have you, is not.


[quote]I disagree. Married couples have single friends... you show up for a cookout, meet someone, get to know each other, and through a shared friendship there's already a level of trust and common interest that you share. A single person with a lot of married friends is in a far better position to enter a [i]healthy marriage[/i] than a single person with lots of single friends.

Emphasis on the healthy marriage... because you might get your wish and regret it. Do not assume that because two people are faithful Christians that their marriage will happy or even successful.[/quote]
True. Maybe that wasn't a good statement on my part. Single Catholics should limit themselves to "singles" activities or websites, but it can be one more option, particularly if networking with married friends, family, etc. isn't getting you anywhere.
If you can find a mate that way, great, but one shouldn't automatically rule out anything "singles," either.
I've seen single people (largely female) who seem to avoid singles of the opposite sex and spend their time almost exclusively with others of the same sex or married couples. And they wonder why "there's no good men."

I found my gf on a Catholic "singles" website, and I know a number of people who've found spouses through such sites.


[quote]It wasn't successful because those groups rarely work. There must be a greater purpose -- it's what we're wired for by God's design. (That's why I think atheist/agnostic groups are hilarious... by forming a group, they form a testament to the Holy Trinity, but I digress.) A parish-based outdoors group, for example, would be great way to form fellowship. Get anyone at the parish and their friends together to go backpacking and rappelling and all that fun stuff. You'll have married couples and singles, probably some non-Catholics, and you'll all share an appreciation for nature and the great outdoors. That's a solid basis for building deeper friendships, and deep friendship is the school in which we learn to follow Christ with deep affection, from whom we receive our vocation.[/quote]
Well, the "singles" activities basically consisted of things like hiking trips and other outdoors events, as well as local cultural events. It's not like everyone gets together in a room and discusses being single. Just a casual way to get to know other people.
Things like parish outdoors clubs and such might be a good idea. Just not sure how well it would work in a smaller parish, with few single adults to begin with.

I think a problem is at many parishes everything is geared either towards teenagers/youth or families with kids, while single adults tend to kind of get left out.


[quote]Of course, I discourage anyone to get seriously involved with a person who doesn't share their faith and values. That said, I have two friends who will get married (not engaged, but they are obviously right for each other) and she's Catholic while he's a non-Catholic Christian. The share a long, deep, committed friendship; he goes to Mass with her; and they are both involved in pro-life ministry. They will enjoy a successful and fruitful marriage.

Now, last summer I went out a couple times with a very liberal Catholic girl. We shared a common enjoyment of baseball games (going back to my point earlier about having something in common besides faith) and I did like her, though I couldn't get involved unless she opened more to being faithful to the Church. I'm still her friend and pray that she someday she sees what is different about a man who is committed to Christ first.



Yes, but it depends on their reason. In my case, I avoided dating non-Christians because I was intimidated by our difference of beliefs, and even as a Catholic I dated a non-Catholic Christian and lacked the confidence to honestly discuss our differences while being a faithful witness to the Catholic Church. My heart would get ahead of my head, and it would bother me too much that someone I had fallen for didn't share my faith and I couldn't stand the possibility that she might not become Catholic. So, for me, it felt safer to only consider Catholics. But, as my love for the Church has grown stronger (even though it still feels weak and vain, but that's part of growing) I know and firmly believe that every person is created to be Catholic. Therefore, I'm open to dating anyone, as long as our virtues and morals are not compromised and the two of us can grow a deeper friendship.

Maybe that is the bottom line I'm trying to get at... we need to pursue friendships and everything else take care of itself in God's time. I love this quote...

"In earthly life, after that of parents and sisters, one of the most beautiful forms of affection is friendship." -Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati


Speaking of Frassati, the [url="http://www.frassati.org/"]Frassati Society[/url] in the Diocese of Lafayette, Indiana is an excellent group for young adult Catholics to pursue Christ together in the spirit of Blessed Frassati's life. There's no doubt people have married through fellowship in this group, along with discovering vocations to the priesthood and religious life. And young adult Catholics in any vocation are part of the group, so it's not a bunch of singles looking for a spouse, but a bunch of young adults following Christ.

Friendship is what teaches us to become givers, to lay down ourselves selflessly for our friends, and whether we are engaged for marriage or studying for priesthood, we should be growing more open to God's love and will for our lives. I know priests who returned to seminary after breaking up an engagement and I've heard of married men who first met their wife while studying for the priesthood. You see, all these people were pursuing Christ and opening themselves to him, and we learn to open ourselves to God by opening ourselves to friendship.

My problem with singles group is they are geared toward the pursuit of marriage [i]at the exclusion[/i] of other vocations, including remaining single. To be truly open to marriage, we must be equally open to wherever God may lead us. We need to pursue Christ and in order to do that we need to minister alongside singles, married, priests, and religious in order to learn by following the example of others who have found their way -- rather, are further along the way. We need to surround ourselves with "elders," so to speak, and you can't do that going to a singles event.[/quote]

While one may be able to form friendships with those of the opposite sex who are not Catholic or orthodox, you need to be careful, because it can also lead to intense emotional/physical relationships with those with serious differences of belief, and create a mess.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with primarily seeking women who share one's Faith and other core beliefs, rather than forgoing anything with Catholic singles to date lots of women with whom one may share no common beliefs.

And I wouldn't say that singles ministries necessarily are at the exclusion of other vocations.

But I think this discussion has essentially run its course. If you have no interest in anything "singles," that's your prerogative; no one is forcing you to participate. However, there's no need to put down all such ministries and those who participate in them, as obviously, they have been beneficial to others. To each his own - it's pointless to keep arguing over this.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1819176' date='Mar 28 2009, 10:51 PM']It's not all about the parents. People rarely take account of what a toll a mixed marriage takes on the children. I love my parents but it was very confusing growing up. I don't want to go into it because it's personal but it can really be tough on the children even when the parents resolve to raise the children religion x and really do their best. I don't want to generalize from my experience, but it's something to remember if you are planning to get married. Not to mention the toll it takes on the parent who does not get to raise their children in their faith tradution.

I think *gasp* the Church swows a lot of wisdom in approaching this with great caution.[/quote]

Yea it can be rough. I know I young woman whose mom was Catholic and whose dad was Presbeterian (or maybe the reverse I forget .) Anyway, when she grew up her family would go to a mass one week and then a Presbeterian service the next week. Eventually, though she decided to be confirmed in the Catholic Church and only be Catholic. It seemed to surprise her family when she did that.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1819745' date='Mar 29 2009, 05:39 PM']I am going to suggest that we do things like get a group together to work with Habitat for Humanity, help out with soup kitchens, hold food drives, help out at homeless shelters, help work on orphanages in Mexico (There aren't any orphanages in the US anymore) etc.[/quote]

We still have orphanages... there's a big one in Louisville called St. Joseph's that I think is home to about 200 kids, maybe more. The need is obviously greater is Mexico and other developing countries.

Will there be a faith development side to doing these good works? Such as having periodic Bible studies or retreats?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']Probably more or less the same things I'd do single.

Not quite sure what your point is, though. Nobody's arguing that one should simply try to marry any Catholic single woman he can, without regard for other considerations, nor is anyone arguing that one's existence should have no focus beyond finding a spouse and getting married.[/quote]

My point is we might as well pursue those interests and activities as single people. The idea of singles ministry seems to overlook that.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']That's all very true, except for the part about ministries focusing on marriage or the priesthood being "unhealthy." That's simply your own opinion, and I disagree. Obviously, for the Catholic, both getting married, and becoming a priest are holy and important goals, and ministries that can help facilitate finding one's vocation are good things, if done properly. There's nothing wrong, for instance, with a group or event for boys/men considering a vocation to the priesthood to help them consider this vocation and talk to priests, learn about seminaries, etc.
Neither is there anything intrinsically wrong about events or sites/groups geared toward singles considering a vocation to marriage.[/quote]

Discernment programs and retreats for marriage and priesthood, at least when done properly, may focus on elements on that vocation, but the most important goal is helping you discern if seminary or marriage are even the path at all.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']So what's wrong with socializing and building friendships with other people who share your Catholic Faith? That's basically what a Catholic singles group is for.
It's dumb to claim that going to a Catholic group is too "insular," while going to a gathering of people with an interest in guns, a sport, or what have you, is not.[/quote]

It's the "singles" part that I think is insular. Why make it an exclusively singles group?

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']Well, the "singles" activities basically consisted of things like hiking trips and other outdoors events, as well as local cultural events. It's not like everyone gets together in a room and discusses being single. Just a casual way to get to know other people.
Things like parish outdoors clubs and such might be a good idea. Just not sure how well it would work in a smaller parish, with few single adults to begin with.[/quote]

I've done those kinds of things in several church groups and they are always more successful with a mix of single and married people. Married couples bring assets to the group that singles can't bring... they help build trust, deeper friendships, commitment, and usually they are settled, own a home, and all that so you know they aren't jetting off to another state for a new job or whatever. If you want to see a young adult group be successful, you need to involve married couples. It's not just a nice gesture; it's a necessity.

As for smaller parishes, get other parishes or even other churches involved, or get whoever you can from the parish and have everyone bring a friend or two.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']I think a problem is at many parishes everything is geared either towards teenagers/youth or families with kids, while single adults tend to kind of get left out.[/quote]

And singles (and married couples without kids) are the one group that doesn't need to rely on a parish to do stuff for them.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']While one may be able to form friendships with those of the opposite sex who are not Catholic or orthodox, you need to be careful, because it can also lead to intense emotional/physical relationships with those with serious differences of belief, and create a mess.[/quote]

I'm only talking about one or two dates... I know some people get physically or emotionally involved even at that stage, but I figure it's a safe assumption that isn't a healthy way to carry out any relationship.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']There's absolutely nothing wrong with primarily seeking women who share one's Faith and other core beliefs, rather than forgoing anything with Catholic singles to date lots of women with whom one may share no common beliefs.[/quote]

Like I said before, depends on what's motivating you in that direction. It could be virtue or no desire to date casually, or it could be fear and lacking confidence. If it's the former, that's fine; the latter isn't so cool.

[quote name='Socrates' post='1819766' date='Mar 29 2009, 07:22 PM']And I wouldn't say that singles ministries necessarily are at the exclusion of other vocations.[/quote]

Which goes back to the question I keep asking: why slap the "singles" label on it? Why not call it a "young adult" group? Or name it after a saint who modeled the group's charism? Or if you're serious about building a solid group of young adults, start a chapter of the Frassati Society in your diocese.

When you call it a "singles" group, you scare away people who are turned off by the idea while (unfortunately) attracting people who are only there to get a date. If that's what you want to do, then more power to ya.

Edited March 29, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[LouisvilleFan]

Hmm... my questions and suggestions must be unreasonable...

Regardless, having the opportunity to intentionally think about the purpose of a singles ministry pushes me to finally dissociate myself from involvement in a similar ministry in my own diocese. I've been slipping out of the group anyway, but now I understand why it's never been and never will be anything more than a smattering of singles without a focus or clear objective for being together.

Edited March 31, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1821026' date='Mar 31 2009, 10:10 AM']Hmm... my questions and suggestions must be unreasonable...

Regardless, having the opportunity to intentionally think about the purpose of a singles ministry pushes me to finally dissociate myself from involvement in a similar ministry in my own diocese. I've been slipping out of the group anyway, but now I understand why it's never been and never will be anything more than a smattering of singles without a focus or clear objective for being together.[/quote]
I think the idea of simply an "adult" ministry is the best way to go, I agree the word singles is unneccessary.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1821059' date='Mar 31 2009, 08:57 AM']I think the idea of simply an "adult" ministry is the best way to go, I agree the word singles is unneccessary.[/quote]

Well I must say I never expected these sorts of views. But I'm finding that I don't really know the Catholic religion all that well. I didn't even know about "cloistered" nuns until last year, and I have to admit that after hanging out with the Protestants for many years it all seems a little weird. Of course, they're "weird" too, but in totally different ways.

Edited April 3, 2009 by southern california guy

[Socrates]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1821059' date='Mar 31 2009, 10:57 AM']I think the idea of simply an "adult" ministry is the best way to go, I agree the word singles is unneccessary.[/quote]
"Adult ministry" typically means "old folks ministry."

You can't win.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1823053' date='Apr 2 2009, 10:47 PM']"Adult ministry" typically means "old folks ministry."

You can't win.[/quote]

And some people can't whine about it enough either.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1823053' date='Apr 2 2009, 07:47 PM']"Adult ministry" typically means "old folks ministry."

You can't win.[/quote]

Seriously we can't win...

When I talked to the Monsignor he explained that they only enforce the "Young Adults" age restrictions for the men -- because women don't cause trouble.
[b]
Hey men over 39 are trouble makers!!! [/b] Boy I'll bet that you can clean up crime in cities by merely prohibiting men over 39 from attending bars, buying alcohol, etc...

But Southern California is a little different because we have the movie stars and very wealthy down here. My uncle, who used to live here, often complained about "older" guys with their young "trophy wives".

Well it would seem to me that the Catholic church -- at least down here -- goes to great lengths to keep the groups age segregated and prevent "older" guys from socializing with "younger" women. The "Adult" community down here is for people over 35. And when I asked a women that runs it about the reason she told me that she didn't think that 40 year old men should be dating women younger than 35. Of course that's only her opinion and she isn't the main person who runs that group. But the interesting thing is that the reason 40 year old men are in the "adult" group -- is that they get kicked out of the "Young Adults" at 40.

So until they reach 40 they have a community of Catholic friends and social activities to attend. Some of these guys try "sneaking" into the events -- because that is where their friends are.

So once they reach 40 they find themselves in a different group that has no women under 45 (The women don't tell their ages but it's easy to guess that they're older when they have grown married children -- who have children of their own). It doesn't matter that the events are open to women as young as 35 because the "Young Adult" and "Adult" events are scheduled at the same time, and no women under 45 would bother with an "Adult" event when they have a "Young Adult" event that they can go to where all of their friends are.

Of course this frustrates the men -- and the older divorced women seem to love this. I've had the women who ran the event point out the guys who'd just been kicked out. And they were delighted by it. Of course these are women who divorced their husbands. And their ex-husbands remarried younger women So you can guess what their pet peeve is!

I did go to one "Young Adults" event -- and I sat with two women in their forties -- and a big Irish guy, built like a football linebacker, who was forty. Of course the woman who ran the "Young Adults" event came over to our table and kicked out the big guy, asked me my age -- and I lied... But she didn't ask either of the women their ages.. It wasn't like we were hanging out with "young" women -- or causing trouble.. And people didn't begin to eat all of the food that had been prepared.

So I wonder what would be wrong with an open "singles" or even "adult" (ages 21 and up so that you can continue attending as you get older without having to lie about your age) ministry. There is certainly the demand. I've seen this sort of thing in Protestant groups. And you know what... I'm thinking about forgetting about the Catholics..

I attended an "open" singles group at a local Protestant church and I was surprised to find that just about everybody had been formerly Catholic. The people in the group were in their thirties and forties -- with a few older and a few youger. And I didn't see any problems whatsoever. And not only that they seemed to be a more conservative religious group than the Catholics..

What has happened to the Catholic church???

Edited April 4, 2009 by southern california guy

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1823962' date='Apr 3 2009, 10:03 PM']Seriously we can't win... [/quote]

Because Jesus died to give us a better dating service? The heart of the matter is this: the Church exists to serve and save a world that is lost. Getting singles together to serve at a soup kitchen is about as low on the priority list as it gets.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1823962' date='Apr 3 2009, 10:03 PM']So until they reach 40 they have a community of Catholic friends and social activities to attend. Some of these guys try "sneaking" into the events -- because that is where their friends are.[/quote]

So, just hang out with them outside of these official church events. Who wants to deal with a silly singles ministry anyway? It's easier to meet at a bar or go fishing, hiking, or do whatever. Get out and see the world... anything has got to be better than being cooped up inside a parish hall with a bunch of singles making small talk. What's keeping you from finding your own opportunities to serve others, since that seems to be what you're dying to do?

I also think it's interesting that you show no interest in a men's ministry. Sounds like Monsignor has been around the block a few times... he knows how people are. If it's Christ you're seeking, find a men's ministry, the Knights of Columbus, or whatever your local parishes have going on. But if it's t-and-a you're after, you can find that a lot of places, and I for one am glad the Catholic Church isn't catering to that "need."

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1823962' date='Apr 3 2009, 10:03 PM']So I wonder what would be wrong with an open "singles" or even "adult" (ages 21 and up so that you can continue attending as you get older without having to lie about your age) ministry. There is certainly the demand. I've seen this sort of thing in Protestant groups. And you know what... I'm thinking about forgetting about the Catholics..[/quote]

The Catholic Church is not a dating service. It's not a place for singles to mingle. We worship in front of a crucifix... we're here to help you bear your cross, die to yourself, seek God's grace, and live eternally in heaven. That's clearly not what you're looking for.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1823962' date='Apr 3 2009, 10:03 PM']I attended an "open" singles group at a local Protestant church and I was surprised to find that just about everybody had been formerly Catholic. The people in the group were in their thirties and forties -- with a few older and a few youger. And I didn't see any problems whatsoever.[/quote]

haha... no problems whatsoever, eh? Oh boy...

So, what do you do when you're not cruisin' the local church singles scene?

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1823962' date='Apr 3 2009, 10:03 PM']And not only that they seemed to be a more conservative religious group than the Catholics..[/quote]

Lovin' the baby and crucifyin' the man, eh?

The conservative political agenda (as a whole) is incompatible with Catholicism, so I'm not sure how that's a good thing for them or anybody.

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1823962' date='Apr 3 2009, 10:03 PM']What has happened to the Catholic church??? [/quote]

Still here... always has been... always will be. You're the one who wants to leave her because she won't wait on you hand and foot, with a pretty girl for you to marry.

Edited April 4, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='southern california guy' post='1809491' date='Mar 17 2009, 12:34 AM']So why does the Catholic church take such a defensive position towards singles -- when the Protestants don't? Perhaps some Protestant groups do, but it seems like every protestant group I check out has a "singles ministry". Why don't the Catholics? Why do there seem to be so many homosexuals in the Catholic church? Since this is the "Debate Table" -- and it's supposed to be controversial -- is there a connection??[/quote]

One thing I've noticed--and I don't mean to come down on the Protestants, but I come from Southern Baptist stock and I know a little bit about this--many of the very devout women tend to not be overly concerned for some reason about marrying men who are as devout as they are. I have known of numerous--so, so many--Protestant couples where there the spouses are clearly unyoked and the wife really suffers for it. I think the Church is right to put so much emphasis on this issue. When absolutely possible, we should marry those who match with our own Faith and values. I would marry a peaceful atheist before I would marry a Protestant, a lapsed Catholic or a liberal Catholic. In order to meet people of like mind and values, the Church has to be proactive in finding ways to bring them together. This is to encourage and protect the integrity of the marital sacrament.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1824570' date='Apr 4 2009, 05:16 PM']So, just hang out with them outside of these official church events. Who wants to deal with a silly singles ministry anyway? It's easier to meet at a bar or go fishing, hiking, or do whatever. Get out and see the world... anything has got to be better than being cooped up inside a parish hall with a bunch of singles making small talk. What's keeping you from finding your own opportunities to serve others, since that seems to be what you're dying to do?[/quote]


About the only "charitable" work I've done was with "Singles Serving Orphans" and you're right I'm going to try and find my own opportunities to do so in the future. I definitely want to do more. The Catholic church may not be the best place to find service opportunities.

And don't worry I haven't been cooped up inside a parish -- for years..

When I was living up in Davis California the local "Crisis Pregnancy Center" came under attack. I could go into more details about the story but "NOW", "Planned Parenthood", and "qwerty Nation" were staging protests and had a girl try to bring a lawsuit against the center -- because years earlier she had given a child up for adoption. I was a member of "Students for Life". One of the girls in the group suggested that we set up and hold a "Life Chain" -- to benefit the Crisis Pregnancy Center, and to make the statement that there were many pro-lifers in Davis. But nobody really wanted to get involved with setting it up -- so I offered to do it.

I went around to every church in Davis, and in neighboring towns and I tried to get the pastors interested. Pastor Jonathon Zachariou, at the Davis Christian Assembly offered to lead the Life Chain, and he did a really good job. We got over a thousand people involved -- and this was in an officially "Pro-choice" city. Anyway to make a long story short the Crisis Pregnancy Center won the lawsuit and for a little bit there we really had the pro-lifers getting involved with the Crisis Pregnancy Center.

But when Murray Lewis (The guy who set up the Sacramento Life Chain) and several other pro-lifers were charged with blocking an abortion clinic -- when really only one of the three were guilty -- I decided to leave California and move somewhere more "conservative" (I know this is a vague term but you know what I mean). So I moved up to Northern Utah. Hey everybody knows that those Mormons are good family people. I even thought that I was going to join them, no matter how nutty their religion was. Of course that didn't work out.... and now I'm back in California.. and I've tried a number of Protestant churches. And my problem has never been that I was too loyal... It was almost always that I was too independent.

Don't worry I've got non-Catholic, and Catholic friends, and I still date. And I even date Catholic women And I love sports and fishing.

However I think that we've been sort of overlooking the obvious. It's something that I've been wondering if I should dare to discuss. But nobody ever said that I was a genius.. so here goes.

I don't think that the Catholic church makes the groups "Adult" groups because the members feel more comfortable in a group labeled "Adult". And I don't think that they avoid singles groups because single men cause trouble. I don't think that they're worried that being "single" isn't much to form a group out of.

I think the problem stems from the vows of celibacy that the Priests and Nuns take. Are you really going to ask a man, or a woman, who have taken a vow of celibacy -- to run a singles ministry???!!!! That's like asking a person on a hunger strike to work as a cook.

No wonder they're more comfortable with "homosexual" and "divorced" ministries. There's no threat there. Those ministries won't make them feel like they've missed out on something in life. And it's easy to see why the Catholics would avoid it while the Protestants don't. The Protestant ministers can marry and lead a normal life. In a singles ministry they can speak from experience. A Catholic priest sure couldn't...

And is it really any shock when a young Priest or nun drops out of the order and becomes sexually out of control?

Of course this post is bordering on heresy. But this is the debate board right?