Eu Bans Use Of 'miss' And 'mrs'

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1809316' date='Mar 16 2009, 09:30 PM']I waited a long time to be a Mrs. They take that away, and there will be trouble.

In Quebec, a woman is not legally allowed to take her husband's last name. She can go to court and legally request it, but it will only be granted if her maiden name is something bizarre or like Hitler or something. Otherwise, forget it. If they want to separate, I say let them. They'd rather be part of the EU.[/quote]
Weirdness.

[quote]I am a woman, not a woperson. I am a female, not a feperson.[/quote]
Taken to it's logical conclussion, you are not a woperdaughter.

[MissyP89]

....Okay, this is just stupid. Being called by my first name in a professional environment is rather disrespectful.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1809423' date='Mar 16 2009, 11:36 PM']....Okay, this is just stupid. Being called by my first name in a professional environment is rather disrespectful.[/quote]
Agreed. I hate when people call me by my first name without asking.

[puellapaschalis]

Work cultures are very different in from what I've seen of North America and in Europe (and even between different countries and/or regions in Europe), so try grabbing a narrower brush

In practice, all women have been referred to as "Ms" (or the appropriate translation of) for several years in at least six different countries I can think of. In some of these I can still insist on being addressed as "Miss"; in others the linguistic change is so advanced that it's just not practical in the workplace.

And linguistic change is something a minority can't stop (though it can certainly start it) without looking like a right pile of pillocks, so I've learnt to offer it up

Meanwhile, whenever I teach I get questions about this. And it's fun to explain the linguistic differences whilst poking fun at the prevalent silly PC-ness.

A semi-PS: the try [i]not[/i] to assume that just because in most varieties of English, the word "Ms" is still a little "odd" and many ladies are still happy to make the distinction, people (esp. ladies) who speak other languages which do not make this distinction necessarily "blur the lines" between being married and singlehood. Just because I, a "Miss", and my boss, a "Mrs", are both referred to as "mevrouw" in Dutch, does not mean that (were I a Dutchwoman) we are unaware of or trapped in a culture that wishes to play down the difference in our marital statuses.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1809617' date='Mar 17 2009, 03:22 AM']Work cultures are very different in from what I've seen of North America and in Europe (and even between different countries and/or regions in Europe), so try grabbing a narrower brush

In practice, all women have been referred to as "Ms" (or the appropriate translation of) for several years in at least six different countries I can think of. In some of these I can still insist on being addressed as "Miss"; in others the linguistic change is so advanced that it's just not practical in the workplace.

And linguistic change is something a minority can't stop (though it can certainly start it) without looking like a right pile of pillocks, so I've learnt to offer it up

Meanwhile, whenever I teach I get questions about this. And it's fun to explain the linguistic differences whilst poking fun at the prevalent silly PC-ness.

A semi-PS: the try [i]not[/i] to assume that just because in most varieties of English, the word "Ms" is still a little "odd" and many ladies are still happy to make the distinction, people (esp. ladies) who speak other languages which do not make this distinction necessarily "blur the lines" between being married and singlehood. Just because I, a "Miss", and my boss, a "Mrs", are both referred to as "mevrouw" in Dutch, does not mean that (were I a Dutchwoman) we are unaware of or trapped in a culture that wishes to play down the difference in our marital statuses.[/quote]

Maybe I don't understand the importance of the terms fully, but I actually don't have a problem with any of this. Personally, I think it would be far easier for there to be one general term referring each to a man or a woman. Like sir and ma'am and just leave it at that. When we throw in terms like miss or or whatever else it tends to complicate things unnecessarily imo. The problem that I have with the OP's topic is the gender-neutral "political correctness" that they are trying to achieve.

Edited March 17, 2009 by goldenchild17

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1809617' date='Mar 17 2009, 05:22 AM']Work cultures are very different in from what I've seen of North America and in Europe (and even between different countries and/or regions in Europe), so try grabbing a narrower brush

In practice, all women have been referred to as "Ms" (or the appropriate translation of) for several years in at least six different countries I can think of. In some of these I can still insist on being addressed as "Miss"; in others the linguistic change is so advanced that it's just not practical in the workplace.

And linguistic change is something a minority can't stop (though it can certainly start it) without looking like a right pile of pillocks, so I've learnt to offer it up

Meanwhile, whenever I teach I get questions about this. And it's fun to explain the linguistic differences whilst poking fun at the prevalent silly PC-ness.

A semi-PS: the try [i]not[/i] to assume that just because in most varieties of English, the word "Ms" is still a little "odd" and many ladies are still happy to make the distinction, people (esp. ladies) who speak other languages which do not make this distinction necessarily "blur the lines" between being married and singlehood. Just because I, a "Miss", and my boss, a "Mrs", are both referred to as "mevrouw" in Dutch, does not mean that (were I a Dutchwoman) we are unaware of or trapped in a culture that wishes to play down the difference in our marital statuses.[/quote]
Many people simply say Miz. I only get annoyed when someone continues to use Miz when I point out that I am a Mrs. or calls me by my first name without asking. This happens a lot at doctors offices etc but quickly stops if I start referring to them by their first name. Somehow they expect the familiarity to only go one way.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1809631' date='Mar 17 2009, 11:39 AM']Many people simply say Miz. I only get annoyed when someone continues to use Miz when I point out that I am a Mrs. or calls me by my first name without asking. This happens a lot at doctors offices etc but quickly stops if I start referring to them by their first name. Somehow they expect the familiarity to only go one way.[/quote]

Here (NL) the familiarity is expected to go both ways unless one's dealing with someone way way up the particular hierarchy present at the time. In one of my jobs I'm a lowly editor, but in meetings with the Dean of Education I'm still expected to call him K and not Prof. P. Were I talking to the Rector Magnificus, however, I'd probably address him as Prof. - but that may have more to do with respective statuses within the university than colleague relationships.

The situation you describe is one I haven't come across very often (where others don't like being addressed informally but will happily address one so). I tend to refuse to give my first name because a) it's a step too informal for me and b) my first name is nigh on unpronounceable anyway. I generally issue a blank look when asked for my first name and simply say, "Miss Paschalis" instead. I love being stubborn I'm sure I've got a repuation at my bank because of it!

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1809324' date='Mar 16 2009, 09:35 PM']Thsoe movies weren't absurd; they were awesome.[/quote]

Yes, they were awesome. But what I said was THE WORLD is turning into an absurb sci-fi flick, not that the aforementioned movies were absurd. Great sci-fi flicks are actually well thought out and thought-provoking, and often very meaningful. The same can't be said for the EU and other knee-jerk reactionaries to trying to appease some phantom group of "offended" people.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1809641' date='Mar 17 2009, 08:34 AM']Yes, they were awesome. But what I said was THE WORLD is turning into an absurb sci-fi flick, not that the aforementioned movies were absurd. Great sci-fi flicks are actually well thought out and thought-provoking, and often very meaningful. The same can't be said for the EU and other knee-jerk reactionaries to trying to appease some phantom group of "offended" people.[/quote]
I don't think they are trying to appease anybody, I think they simply want to abolish gender as we know it.

[Galloglasses' Alt]

How do you guys feel about being addressed by Surname? For example, I often refer to the teachers who I'm on good terms with by their last name, (disrespectful I know, but this is when my tounge slips and I forget to address them by Sir or Miss) Instead of Miz, for some reason the sound of the word bugs me, I automatically address all my female teachers as Miss, this is primarily because with my attrocious memory I can't figure which ones are married or not and go with the safer bet.

However, someone said earlier just t address all males and Females as 'Sir' or 'Ma am' Which i don't particularly mind, but it'd be a safer bet such terms would be banned also. That and I prefer the Honorifics to make a distinction in a person's status, (altough this exists in the male sense but not to an obvious degree, Such as 'sir' when addressing someone, or the capital S 'Sir' when addressing someone with a knighthood in both third and second person) Here's a thought, was there ever a distinction in the male that made the difference between an unmarried man and a married one? Like Miss and Mrs?

Now back on topic. I'll be damned if I'd obey this nonsense law, the EU does not speak for me and I don't recognise it. If they ban Miss and Mrs, how long till they ban ethnic honorics such as "Mc" (Meaning son of, daughter of, wife of [insert the name of family's founding patriarch]) and "O'" as being Sexist as well, or even racist? Why are they trying to simplify all of Western society and culture back to the stone age? For the love of, just why?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1809423' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:36 AM']....Okay, this is just stupid. Being called by my first name in a professional environment is rather disrespectful.[/quote]
As puella said, work cultures are different. In the US, I never would have called one of my profs by his or her first name. And one of my profs would also refer to his students as Mr or Miss x. Here, I walked into the office of the head of the department, and he said "Hi, I'm Ian". Which was somewhat awkward for me considering I'd read his books and used them in my research papers in the US. Though I obviously don't know how things are outside of the university environment workplaces here, if it's the same way or not.

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1809630' date='Mar 17 2009, 09:17 AM']Maybe I don't understand the importance of the terms fully, but I actually don't have a problem with any of this. Personally, I think it would be far easier for there to be one general term referring each to a man or a woman. Like sir and ma'am and just leave it at that. When we throw in terms like miss or or whatever else it tends to complicate things unnecessarily imo. The problem that I have with the OP's topic is the gender-neutral "political correctness" that they are trying to achieve.[/quote]
In general, that's fine with me. Though it amuses me to no end to see things addressed to my son as "Master Kieran". But yeah, I'm definitely opposed to the gender-neutral thing they're trying to do. I'm quite content being a woman and others knowing I'm a woman. Call me crazy.

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1809655' date='Mar 17 2009, 12:54 PM']How do you guys feel about being addressed by Surname? For example, I often refer to the teachers who I'm on good terms with by their last name, (disrespectful I know, but this is when my tounge slips and I forget to address them by Sir or Miss) Instead of Miz, for some reason the sound of the word bugs me, I automatically address all my female teachers as Miss, this is primarily because with my attrocious memory I can't figure which ones are married or not and go with the safer bet.[/quote]
Depends on how well I know the person, I guess. Throughout uni my friends all referred to me by my surname. At least in part because, in my group of friends, two of us had the same name, and a third had a very similar name (side note, the two of us with the same name married men with the same surname - it gets confusing so her husband still calls me by my maiden name). Since I liked my maiden name, I never had a problem with people calling me by that. Provided they actually pronounced it correctly (which was fairly rare). It wasn't a difficult surname even.

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1809655' date='Mar 17 2009, 12:54 PM']Here's a thought, was there ever a distinction in the male that made the difference between an unmarried man and a married one? Like Miss and Mrs?[/quote]
The only distinction of which I'm aware was calling boys "Master" and then "upgrading" them, as it were, to "Mister" at a certain age. But I don't think it's ever been based on their marital status. I'll have to look at that one more.

[Galloglasses' Alt]

Well here in Ireland not too long ago it was customary to refer to your teachers, (who around 30 years ago was pretty male dominated job, today its female dominated), as master, in fact some of my teachers when visiting eachother mid class, refer to the one teaching class as 'master', or it could do with the fact some of my teachers are heads of departments. I always thought the word Mister was derived from Master of ages past, I find it strange that boys would be called master when younger, only to be called mister when older, but meh, wouldn't mind if it was brought back into fashion.

[scardella]

I figure as long as it's accurate and not derogatory, it's fair game. Well, peon is a (nearly) universally applicable title.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Galloglasses' Alt' post='1809691' date='Mar 17 2009, 01:56 PM']I always thought the word Mister was derived from Master of ages past, I find it strange that boys would be called master when younger, only to be called mister when older, but meh, wouldn't mind if it was brought back into fashion.[/quote]
It was, I think. So it is a bit odd. Maybe that's why I find it so funny.

[cmotherofpirl]

In English and Welsh society
Master was used in England for men of some rank, especially "free masters" of a trade guild and by any manual worker or servant employee to his employer (his master), but also generally by those lower in status to gentlemen, priests or scholars. In the Elizabethan period it is used between equals, especially to a group ("My masters"), mainly by urban artisans and tradespeople. It was later extended to all respectable men and was the forerunner of Mister, which is derived from it.

After its replacement in common speech by Mister, Master was retained as an address for boys or young men. By the late 19th century, etiquette dictated that men be addressed as Mister, boys under 13 years old be addressed as Master, and from 13 to the age of maturity males not be accorded courtesy titles. However, in more recent times it is not uncommon for secondary school boys (and sometimes older primary school boys, but not, typically, younger) to be addressed as Mister, though some etiquette writers hold that the title Mr should not be used until the boy has left school. The title Master is much less frequently used than formerly. Master is still sometimes used as the written form of address for boys of below some undefined age, often regarded as about 13 in formal correspondence, particularly invitations to formal affairs.[1]

Master is used sometimes to describe the male head of a large estate or household who often employs many domestic workers.

In Scottish society
The heir to a Scottish lordship, barony or viscountcy is given the honorific title Master of followed by his father's title. For instance, the heir of Lord Elphinstone is known as the Master of Elphinstone; The Master of Ballantrae by Robert Louis Stevenson is about the ignoble heir to a noble house.

In Canada
It was formerly common (in Anglophone Canada) for the English usage of master to be followed for boys, when addressing letters or in forms of formal address, but use of the title master has now largely ceased.

In the United States
The general usage follows the English, though less strictly. Adult males are addressed, formally, as Mister, while boys are addressed formally as Master, though the latter is retained only in highly formal situations (such as for weddings and wedding invitations, which tend to be the only time many people follow full, formal etiquette) and by some older persons. The age at which the transition from master to mister takes place is not strictly observed, though approximately 13, or the beginning of high school (13 to 14) is usual for those who still observe the distinction.

In institutions
Some academic institutions, notably colleges within universities such as Oxford and Cambridge, have a post of Master, generally being the head of the institution. In formal address it can be customary to address such persons as Master, for example at the beginning of a speech: Master, President, Senior Members, ladies and gentlemen:.

Within the four Inns of Court, the governing bodies are formed by the Masters of the Bench, all of whom will be addressed by as, for example, Master Bloggs, notwithstanding that they may be Mr Bloggs QC, Lord Bloggs or Judge Bloggs at work or in outside life. There is also a category of junior judges, the High Court Masters, who are properly addressed as Master. In all these cases, the title Master is applied to women as well as men.

In Canada, judicial officers (deputy judges) called Masters may be appointed to the Superior Court of a province, and are generally appointed to courthouses located in larger cities. Masters may adjudicate interim matters in court cases and are formally addressed as "Master" or "Sir"/"Madam".

The head of almost every London Livery Company is the Master, and addressed as such.

The head of a Masonic Lodge is the Master, and addressed as Worshipful Master (not to be confused with the degree of Master Mason, which is not a form of address.)

Some American college preparatory schools refer to their instructors as Masters, based on the British model. The head of a school is sometimes referred to as the Headmaster.

Other uses in society
A tradesman who has qualified on completion of his apprenticeship may be described as a Master Plumber, Master baker, etc., although that is not a form of address.
The term is generally used now to refer to an artisan considered to be at the top of their craft.

It is not appropriate to refer to an adult as “Master” on account of his marital status or age relative to the person using the address. This is occasionally used as a petty insult.[2]