The Lord's Brother - One Of The Twelve?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1810469' date='Mar 18 2009, 12:30 PM']My grandfather does. If I remember I'll ask him next time I speak to him.[/quote]
Thanks! I have a couple of friends who know it, so I'll have to ask them, too, when I get a chance. Let me know what your grandfather says, though, please.

[thessalonian]

[quote](On a side note, a question for anyone with knowledge of the original languages of Scripture I have read that Greek (unlike Hebrew) does have a word for cousin, and even more significantly it is used by Luke to denote Mary's relationship to Elizabeth - is this the case and if so, do you think this impacts on the cousin theory?)"[/quote]

First of all the Church does not specify that those named as Jesus "brothers" were cousins. Further it seems likely to me that those named in Matt 13 (Mark 6) as Jesus brothers, James, Joses, Simon, Jude perhaps are of multiple relationships. James and Jude in John 19 are mentioned as being son's of another Mary. This Mary is said to be, "Mary's Sister", which would make them cousins. But Simon and Jude seem to be of another relationship that we cannot assess from the text.

[thessalonian]

This might help in this discussion. I wrote it a while back and it's in the defense directory, called "keeping track of the mary's"


[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=52652&hl=track"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...52&hl=track[/url]

We are always told that the following passages tell us that Mary had other children.

Matt.13
[55] Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? Matt.27


Mark.6
[3] Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.

The guy I am debating with had an article that said the Mary in Matt 27 was Jesus mother. blink.gif

I did a little analysis beyond the usual indicating that this James and Joses/Joseph are likely sons of a Mary who is at the cross because an article posted on another board said that this Mary at the cross was Mary the mother of Jesus. Here it is. Hope it helps.

Consider these passages.

Matt.27
[56] among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zeb'edee.
[61] Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary were there, sitting opposite the sepulchre.

Matt.28
[1] Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Mag'dalene and the other Mary went to see the sepulchre.

Mark.16
[1] And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo'me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
[9] Now when he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Mark.15
[40] There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Mag'dalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salo'me,
[47] Mary Mag'dalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

John 19
[25]
So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag'dalene.
[26] When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"
[27] Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.
[28]

Luke 24
[10] Now it was Mary Mag'dalene and Jo-an'na and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told this to the apostles;


Okay, we have this Mary who is the mother of James in Mark 16 and Luke 24. We have "the other mary" and Mary the mother of Joses in Mark 15 and Matt 27, 28 respectively. Mary the mother of Joses and the other Mary are identified as being with Mary Magadalene when they watch where Jesus is laid. Mary the Mother of James is the Mary, with Mary Magadalen when they tell the apostles (luke 24) they have seen the Lord. Mark 15 has Mary Magdalene and Mary the Mother of James the younger (less) looking on from afar. In Mark 15 there is a Mary, looking on from afar who is Mary, mother of James and Joses. Hmmmm.

Seems almost dead certain that "the other Mary", Mary the mother of Joses, and Mary the Mother of James and Joses, and Mary the mother of James the younger (less) are all the same Mary. Note that not once are any of these Mary's identified as Mary the Mother of Jesus and in John 19 it is clear that we have another Mary (Mary wife of Clopas) with the group who is not the mother of Jesus. Further Mary the mother of Jesus is not mentioned in the passages where the women looked on from afar. Probably because she stayed right with the body. Or perhaps seeing her son to distraught it is not surprizing that she might have been taken away by the others. Perhaps John, who's care she was entrusted to and who was not at the tomb with the other two Mary's.

One more point. In John 19 it indicates that John and Mary are near the cross and likely the other women, who are together, are a bit further off. This is consistent with the separation shown in the other two Gospels and again indicates that Mary, mother of James and Joses and Mary the wife of Clopas are the same woman.

I do hope you follow all that. I think your author blew this one bad. As do many other authors who have to prove Mary had other children. Now I am not claiming to prove otherwise, just showing the bias they display in their "exegesis".


Blessings

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810190' date='Mar 17 2009, 08:23 PM']I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.[/quote]

Read my posts above. Likely those whom were called brothers were of multiple relationships. Not just cousins. Likely those of the Mary who was likely Jesus's mother's "sister" was actually a cousin of Mary (iin some translations). If she was a blood sister then we have the issue of there being two girls in the family with the same first name. Rather odd don't you think. This would make James and Joses second cousins I believe, not first cousins. Simon and Jude seem to be of a different relationship. orthodox tradition has it that Jesus had some step brothers form Joseph. Likely when the bibles were written and translated the exact relationships were not known as well. Thus one word does not fit all except the broad usage of "brother".

[Archaeology cat]

Thanks, thes!

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1810495' date='Mar 18 2009, 10:04 AM']Read my posts above. Likely those whom were called brothers were of multiple relationships. Not just cousins. Likely those of the Mary who was likely Jesus's mother's "sister" was actually a cousin of Mary (iin some translations). If she was a blood sister then we have the issue of there being two girls in the family with the same first name. Rather odd don't you think. This would make James and Joses second cousins I believe, not first cousins. Simon and Jude seem to be of a different relationship. orthodox tradition has it that Jesus had some step brothers form Joseph. Likely when the bibles were written and translated the exact relationships were not known as well. Thus one word does not fit all except the broad usage of "brother".[/quote]


Um, was it really necessary to TELL me to read your posts? I was not questioning the fact that the "brothers" were not real brothers, but rather questioning why some other word other than "brother" was not used, such as "cousin" or "kinsman". I already understood that the original text was talking about family members not literally brothers.

Maybe it was just your wording....

Edited March 18, 2009 by Madame Vengier

[thessalonian]

It wasn't meant to be offensive. I just wanted to emphasize that part of my answer to your question was in there. Cousin could not be used because they don't seem to have all been cousins. Not sure any of them were except perhaps second cousins. kinsman seems a bit too broad as it includes people who are not related in a family way. Relatives could be used but I am not sure where the hebrew and greek are on that. Ack is the hebrew and it is brother and is quite fitting in the culture of the day. I believe brother or brethern to be the best term in my analysis considering culture, hebrew, greek, etc. that all play a role in this. I also trust the scholars to some degree as the Catholic Church picks the most qualified to do this work. It is more than translating languages. They would not let Luther or Tinsdale or others who wanted to do it, do it because it was gravely critical and history bears that out.

Edited March 19, 2009 by thessalonian