The Lord's Brother - One Of The Twelve?

[Servant of the Secret Fire]

Question for discussion: is James the brother of the Lord the same person as James the son of Alphaeus, one of the Twelve?

I don't want this to be a debate about whether or not James (and the other brothers and sisters of Jesus) are children of the Blessed Virgin Mary - that question is settled, but the question of who exactly some of the minor characters of the New Testament are is wide open, and somewhat important in convincing people that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a mistake that disproves the infallibility of the Magisterium.

I'll put in my 2 cents later.

[Madame Vengier]

My understanding from scholars of the original Hebrew text is that in Hebrew the word for cousins and brothers is the same. Not sure if this is true or if I'm even relaying it correctly. But Our Lord had no fleshly brothers or sisters, as his mother was a virgin before and after his birth, so this can't mean a literal blood brother.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Servant of the Secret Fire' post='1808930' date='Mar 16 2009, 04:45 PM']Question for discussion: is James the brother of the Lord the same person as James the son of Alphaeus, one of the Twelve?

I don't want this to be a debate about whether or not James (and the other brothers and sisters of Jesus) are children of the Blessed Virgin Mary - that question is settled, but the question of who exactly some of the minor characters of the New Testament are is wide open, and somewhat important in convincing people that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a mistake that disproves the infallibility of the Magisterium.

I'll put in my 2 cents later.[/quote]

I've read both opinions. I was taught by a professor that he was not the James of the twelve. Seems far from settled.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Servant of the Secret Fire' post='1808930' date='Mar 16 2009, 08:45 PM']Question for discussion: is James the brother of the Lord the same person as James the son of Alphaeus, one of the Twelve?

I don't want this to be a debate about whether or not James (and the other brothers and sisters of Jesus) are children of the Blessed Virgin Mary - that question is settled, but the question of who exactly some of the minor characters of the New Testament are is wide open, and somewhat important in convincing people that the perpetual virginity of Mary is not a mistake that disproves the infallibility of the Magisterium.[/quote]
I had thought traditionally James the Just and James the son of Alphaeus were equated as one, but I don't know all the arguments around that. The[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08280a.htm"] Catholic Encyclopaedia[/url] seems to hold that view, as well, for what it's worth.

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1808995' date='Mar 16 2009, 09:35 PM']My understanding from scholars of the original Hebrew text is that in Hebrew the word for cousins and brothers is the same. Not sure if this is true or if I'm even relaying it correctly. But Our Lord had no fleshly brothers or sisters, as his mother was a virgin before and after his birth, so this can't mean a literal blood brother.[/quote]
Pretty much correct. There isn't an actual word for "cousin" in Hebrew, so the word for "brother" (or "sister") is used instead.

[IrishSalesian]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1808995' date='Mar 16 2009, 06:35 PM']My understanding from scholars of the original Hebrew text is that in Hebrew the word for cousins and brothers is the same.[/quote]

I agree with Madame V. My understanding is also that in the original text the word for cousin is the same as brother in the Hebrew text.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='IrishSalesian' post='1809706' date='Mar 17 2009, 02:29 PM']I agree with Madame V. My understanding is also that in the original text the word for cousin is the same as brother in the Hebrew text.[/quote]
There isn't a word for cousin, so "brother" is used for any male relative. I think Lot is also called Abraham's brother, even though the text then elaborates that Lot is the son of Abraham's brother or sister.

[Servant of the Secret Fire]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1809800' date='Mar 17 2009, 06:12 PM']There isn't a word for cousin, so "brother" is used for any male relative. I think Lot is also called Abraham's brother, even though the text then elaborates that Lot is the son of Abraham's brother or sister.[/quote]

Sorry, should have made myself clearer, I was simply using "brother" since that is how it is generally translated and, properly understood, covers both the "cousin" theory and the "step-brother" (children of Joseph by previous marriage) theory, whichever you prefer.

(On a side note, a question for anyone with knowledge of the original languages of Scripture I have read that Greek (unlike Hebrew) does have a word for cousin, and even more significantly it is used by Luke to denote Mary's relationship to Elizabeth - is this the case and if so, do you think this impacts on the cousin theory?)

On the main topic - thanks for the Encyclopedia link, for some reason I didn't think to look at it when I was googling this the other day. The argument in favour of the identity of the brother of the Lord and the son of Alphaeus seems to depend heavily on Paul's statement: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother." Galations 1:19. I wonder though if the argument is really that strong. Paul is counted as an Apostle because of the appearance of the risen Christ to him, and we know from Paul that the Jesus appeared to James after the Resurrection ("Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles." 1 Corinthians 15:7) and therefore it seems dubious to me to assert that "apostles" in Galations refers only to the twelve. (Indeed just two verses before the above Corinthians verse, Paul uses the phrase the twelve "and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." 1 Cor 15:5)

Edited March 17, 2009 by Servant of the Secret Fire

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Servant of the Secret Fire' post='1809898' date='Mar 17 2009, 07:01 PM']Sorry, should have made myself clearer, I was simply using "brother" since that is how it is generally translated and, properly understood, covers both the "cousin" theory and the "step-brother" (children of Joseph by previous marriage) theory, whichever you prefer.

(On a side note, a question for anyone with knowledge of the original languages of Scripture I have read that Greek (unlike Hebrew) does have a word for cousin, and even more significantly it is used by Luke to denote Mary's relationship to Elizabeth - is this the case and if so, do you think this impacts on the cousin theory?)[/quote]
Well, the Septuagint also uses the word "brother" (even though they have a word for cousin, and nephew) for the relationship between Abraham and Lot, though it was an uncle-nephew relationship, so I don't think that would necessarily debunk the cousin theory.

[quote]On the main topic - thanks for the Encyclopedia link, for some reason I didn't think to look at it when I was googling this the other day. The argument in favour of the identity of the brother of the Lord and the son of Alphaeus seems to depend heavily on Paul's statement: "But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother." Galations 1:19. I wonder though if the argument is really that strong. Paul is counted as an Apostle because of the appearance of the risen Christ to him, and we know from Paul that the Jesus appeared to James after the Resurrection ("Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles." 1 Corinthians 15:7) and therefore it seems dubious to me to assert that "apostles" in Galations refers only to the twelve. (Indeed just two verses before the above Corinthians verse, Paul uses the phrase the twelve "and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve." 1 Cor 15:5)[/quote]
No problem. I'll have to examine their argument more, since I haven't read it in-depth yet.

[Archaeology cat]

Right, don't know why I didn't do this earlier (must have gotten distracted), but I just looked up "adelphos" in an [url="http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=80"]online Greek lexicon. [/url] These are the definitions listed:
[quote]1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. any fellow or man
4. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5. an associate in employment or office
6. brethren in Christ
1. his brothers by blood
2. all men
3. apostles
4. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place[/quote]

So if [i]adelphos [/i]is used to denote all of those things, then it hardly seems conclusive to say it must mean brothers from the same mother.

ETA: Those definitions are from Strong's Concordance.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Archaeology cat

[Madame Vengier]

I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810190' date='Mar 17 2009, 07:23 PM']I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.[/quote]

Because the first widely circulated English version was Protestant.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1810190' date='Mar 18 2009, 12:23 AM']I suppose all this begs the question, Why do English translations use the word "brother" given all the evidence that the real word used is not "brother" at all? I mean, why not just use "cousin"? All this has done has been to cause confusion and to give more fuel to the fire for protestant theology to reject the Perpetual Virginity of the Mother of Christ.[/quote]
That's what I'm thinking. I mean, I had always heard that [i]adelphos [/i]always meant "from the same womb" when people were arguing against Mary's perpetual virginity and such, but since Strong's Concordance (definitely a Protestant source) even gives all these other definitions, it really shouldn't be an argument at all. They could even just use the word "kinsman" and that would work.

ETA: I'd love to hear from someone who knows Koine, though.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1810221' date='Mar 18 2009, 01:37 AM']Because the first widely circulated English version was Protestant.[/quote]
Good point.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Archaeology cat

[Archaeology cat]

Oh, and one more thing, the people referring to Jesus' "brothers" would have been speaking Aramaic, right? Which, like Hebrew, uses "brother" to denote any male relative. It's quite common to keep using the terminology of your mother tongue when writing in another language, even if that language has more specific ways of denoting relationships or such things.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1810221' date='Mar 17 2009, 09:37 PM']Because the first widely circulated English version was Protestant.[/quote]

That doesn't explain why Catholic bibles continued with the error.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1810459' date='Mar 18 2009, 03:01 AM']That's what I'm thinking. I mean, I had always heard that [i]adelphos [/i]always meant "from the same womb" when people were arguing against Mary's perpetual virginity and such, but since Strong's Concordance (definitely a Protestant source) even gives all these other definitions, it really shouldn't be an argument at all. They could even just use the word "kinsman" and that would work.

ETA: I'd love to hear from someone who knows Koine, though.


Good point.[/quote]


My grandfather does. If I remember I'll ask him next time I speak to him.