Leadership....

[Bruce S]

"Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst."

~C.S. Lewis

One of the issues I have with ALL denominations is failure in leadership to actually DO what they promote. This holds true to my current denomination, The Assembly of God, we have had some of the most spectacular of financial crooks out there.

[quote]We as Christians are given the charge in 2 Thessalonians 5:21 to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." There is nothing that we as God’s children should exclude from examination under the light of the Word of God. There is nothing, no matter how "pleasant to the eyes" (Genesis 3:6) it appears that we should automatically presume is the will of God.

And may we not forget our adversary. Satan is very crafty. His ultimate goal is "to be like the most High" (Isaiah 14:14). He is the master of counterfeiters. The Bible says in Matthew 24:24 that "false Christs shall arise" and "if possible should deceive the very elect". Satan desires to be Christ. His ultimate role would be to "act" as Jesus.
[/quote]

So, how does the laity, those UNDER the charge of leaders, ensure that the leaders are faithful to the mission, stay on the right track, and not lead us astray? We all tend to operate with trust to our leaders, but they are men too, and all men fail...all men are sinners according to St. Paul, are they not?

Edited March 22, 2004 by Bruce S

[Theoketos]

Amen that all men are sinners.

Still our Lord provided a promise that the Gates of Hell shall not previal. And Jesus Built His Church upon the Rock of Peter. The Chair of Peter extends to today.

You must admit that the true Christian Church has never errored in matters of Faith and Morals.

[Bruce S]

[quote]You must admit that the true Christian Church has never errored in matters of Faith and Morals.
[/quote]

I will never be able to "get past" the necromancy of bodies in cases, and the statuary issues.... nor the Mary Apparatiions, those freak me out. Sorry.

One that particularly troubles me is Zeitun, Egypt:

[img]http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/zeitun.gif[/img]

[quote]

" Official investigations have been carried out with the result that it has been considered an undeniable fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing on Zeitun Church in a clear and bright luminous body seen by all present in front of the church, whether Christian or Moslem"

Report of General Information and Complaints Department, Zeitun, Egypt 1968[/quote]

Satan appearing as an "Angel of Light" comes to mind with Zeitun. You can actually watch filmclips of this apparition online here:

[url="http://www.zeitun-eg.org/"]Watch Film Here[/url]



On LIFE issues, like abortion and dignified natural death, no one does things better than the Catholic Church.

Edited March 22, 2004 by Bruce S

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 22 2004, 05:41 AM'] "Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst."

~C.S. Lewis

One of the issues I have with ALL denominations is failure in leadership to actually DO what they promote. This holds true to my current denomination, The Assembly of God, we have had some of the most spectacular of financial crooks out there.

So, how does the laity, those UNDER the charge of leaders, ensure that the leaders are faithful to the mission, stay on the right track, and not lead us astray? We all tend to operate with trust to our leaders, but they are men too, and all men fail...all men are sinners according to St. Paul, are they not? [/quote]
[quote]We as Christians are given the charge in 2 Thessalonians 5:21 to "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." There is nothing that we as God’s children should exclude from examination under the light of the Word of God. There is nothing, no matter how "pleasant to the eyes" (Genesis 3:6) it appears that we should automatically presume is the will of God.

And may we not forget our adversary. Satan is very crafty. His ultimate goal is "to be like the most High" (Isaiah 14:14). He is the master of counterfeiters. The Bible says in Matthew 24:24 that "false Christs shall arise" and "if possible should deceive the very elect". Satan desires to be Christ. His ultimate role would be to "act" as Jesus.[/quote]

amen to this...and the other quote to.

except I don't belong to a denomination...

----

and motherorpirl, yes, Christ promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church...but as I've said...and as the Bible says, Christ based HIS church on the confession of Peter...that Jesus IS the Son of God, the Messiah.

to say that its any other way...I don't know...would be like any of the denominations in their skewed doctrine.

2000 years or not...it doesn't really matter... if Luther didn't do it, someone else would have.

to claim the truth because the Roman Catholic Church has been around is like saying "you gotta believe me cuz I'm older"...which isn't the truth in itself...even Christ Himself was astonishing people at a young age...with truth.

[Jake Huether]

[quote]Satan appearing as an "Angel of Light" comes to mind with Zeitun. You can actually watch filmclips of this apparition online here:

Watch Film Here[/quote]


Hmmm.... Why would Satan appear as Mary?

I'm not sure of the logic. Have you even researched the fruit of this apparition? Are people returning to Christ? Or are people being lead away from Christ?

We know a tree by it's fruit. Well... What fruit makes you think that this is Satan?

[DojoGrant]

I love it how people who aren't Catholic, regardless of their beliefs, esteem Luther.

Forget the fact that you reject probably 75% of what Luther continued to teach and believe.

[ironmonk]

Firstly, we know that wolves will reach places of authority in the Church Acts 20:30, 2 Peter 3:15. So we have to make sure that they do not contradict anything since 33 AD when the Church began. That is how we know the leadership is good and that they are in the same group established by Christ.


Secondly, The apparitions proclaim Jesus to be the Christ. An evil spirit cannot do this. This is the test of the spirits - if they proclaim Jesus to be Christ and worship Him, then it is not an evil spirit.

[b]1 John 4:1 [/b]
Beloved, do not trust every spirit but [b]test the spirits to see whether they belong [/b]to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
[b]2 [/b][u][b]This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,[/b][/u]
[b]3 [/b]and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world.

This let's us know that spirits WILL come that DO belong to God. You have to test them, you don't just blow them off.

I really wish you would read your bibles.


God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited March 22, 2004 by ironmonk

[marielapin]

If Moses and Elijah could appear to the disciples, why cannot Mary appear to us? I personally found Marian apparitions as well as Eucharistic Miracles draw me closer to Christ. They are miracles that prove He is still with us everyday, that Heaven is watching and cares about us.

And Bruce, every Marian apparition is investigated according to Ironmonk's posts. It is only deemed "worthy of belief" if it does not contradict the Bible or any other Church teaching.

[cmotherofpirl]

The Churchs in Egypt says the apparitions in Zuitan were real.
They were there you were not.

Remember private revelations are not required belief.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]to claim the truth because the Roman Catholic Church has been around is like saying "you gotta believe me cuz I'm older"...which isn't the truth in itself...even Christ Himself was astonishing people at a young age...with truth[/quote]

Well the Truth has been around for 2000 years! The gates of hell have not and will not prevail against His Catholic Church. We can prove to you the facts, if you accept them are not is up to you! Christ founded the Catholic Church period.


[quote]So, how does the laity, those UNDER the charge of leaders, ensure that the leaders are faithful to the mission, stay on the right track, and not lead us astray? We all tend to operate with trust to our leaders, but they are men too, and all men fail...all men are sinners according to St. Paul, are they not? [/quote]

Only the Pope who gives the Church a teaching is DONE WITHOUT MISTAKE, period. The Pope goes to confession, but the Holy Spirit gives Him the Knowledge and authority to do this. He is the Vicar of Christ, he is a servant of the Church. It's sealed by God Himself, want the facts, read them, you can find them. Go [url="http://www.ewtn.com"]HERE![/url]. You will find teachings and documents in this web site!!

Any way Peace,
God Bless,
Jason

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 22 2004, 10:20 AM']
I will never be able to "get past" the necromancy of bodies in cases, and the statuary issues.... nor the Mary Apparatiions, those freak me out. Sorry.

[/quote]
Why are you sorry that you will never "get past" them? Do you wish to come home?

Come home.

[Dave]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Mar 22 2004, 11:20 AM']
I will never be able to "get past" the necromancy of bodies in cases, and the statuary issues.... nor the Mary Apparatiions, those freak me out. Sorry.

[/quote]
Bruce, it is NOT necromancy! I think this has been brought up before.

And I think we've also explained to you why there's nothing wrong with statues.

[ironmonk]

How is it necromancy if they are alive in Heaven?

We know that people in Heaven are more alive than we are.

If you died early, and you left behind children, siblings, parents, friends, etc... and if you made it to Heaven, what would you do if you knew that your family and friends where going down the wrong path or going through hard times?

Would you pray for them while you where in Heaven?

I know that if I died today and I made it to Heaven that I would pray constantly for those I love on earth. I would hope that those that I prayed for appriciated it.

We honor those who die in Christ, as all Christians have since 33 AD.



God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited March 22, 2004 by ironmonk

[Theoketos]

I am not sure that I could come up with any arguements that might even seem valid against statues...

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]So, how does the laity, those UNDER the charge of leaders, ensure that the leaders are faithful to the mission, stay on the right track, and not lead us astray?[/quote]

The Catholic Church is not a democracy. The charge of guiding the leadership of the Church is not on the laity. This is the task which the Holy Spirit works. However, men can refuse God, and leaders in the Church have rejected the guidance before, but never has the pope, in a matter of faith or morals, from the Seat of Peter, rejected that guidance.