Why Men Stay Away From The Feminized Church

[takebacktonight]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1804997' date='Mar 12 2009, 03:57 PM']It would be unfair to stereotype too harshly, but something about that article rings true when it talks about men being interested in defending the faith through confrontation and intellectual debate...[/quote]

I don't know. One of the only reasons I am considering Catholicism vs. other religions is because of the Church's dedication to reason, intellectualism, and education. Fr. Moses Coady always comes to mind.

I simply couldn't join a Church that didn't fully support education and intellectualism.


[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1805000' date='Mar 12 2009, 03:58 PM']Exactly. After all, weren't the Apostles male? Isn't our GOD a male??[/quote]


Word.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1804997' date='Mar 12 2009, 03:57 PM']It would be unfair to stereotype too harshly, but something about that article rings true when it talks about men being interested in defending the faith through confrontation and intellectual debate...[/quote]

Do you mean on Phatmass or in general, like with the Saints?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1804837' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:34 PM']I find this hilarious. Are their churches dominated by female preachers? If the answer is no, then just as many men are preaching "feminized" Christianity. Maybe these male preachers should recognize that they are losing male members and ask themselves why. Or maybe male preachers can give female preachers some kind words of advice.

Furthermore, I severely dislike that the blame is being placed on women, that men are leaving the church. Maybe it's not JUST the style of preaching, but the members' [i]personality[/i] and [i]"me-first" faith[/i] that pushes them to leave and search for a church more to their liking. That's why Catholicism is so great, there's no room for subjective interpretation.[/quote]

Part of the problem is that there are priests who are trying to appease the radical feminist crowd (possibly because that crowd is throwing temper tantrums over women's ordination and abortion). I distinctly remember one instance where the priest at our Newman Center who substituted the word "humankind" for "mankind" and when I mentioned why he did not use the word "humanity", he replied that it wasn't satisfactory enough for the feminists.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1805000' date='Mar 12 2009, 03:58 PM']Isn't our GOD a male??[/quote]


no.

Check "God and the World" and interview with Joseph Ratzinger

"God is neither male nor female".

He does go on to qualify that somewhat, others would be better to d that than I

[Hassan]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1805019' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:18 PM']Part of the problem is that there are priests who are trying to appease the radical feminist crowd (possibly because that crowd is throwing temper tantrums over women's ordination and abortion). I distinctly remember one instance where the priest at our Newman Center who substituted the word "humankind" for "mankind" and when I mentioned why he did not use the word "humanity", he replied that it wasn't satisfactory enough for the feminists.[/quote]

That may be the case in your experience. For the larger historical trend it began in the nineteenth century when men began attending Church less.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1805019' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:18 PM']Part of the problem is that there are priests who are trying to appease the radical feminist crowd (possibly because that crowd is throwing temper tantrums over women's ordination and abortion). I distinctly remember one instance where the priest at our Newman Center who substituted the word "humankind" for "mankind" and when I mentioned why he did not use the word "humanity", he replied that it wasn't satisfactory enough for the feminists.[/quote]

Now THAT is ridiculous. I am not offended in the LEAST when I hear "mankind."


[quote name='Hassan' post='1805023' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:20 PM']no.

Check "God and the World" and interview with Joseph Ratzinger

"God is neither male nor female".

He does go on to qualify that somewhat, others would be better to d that than I[/quote]

Christ is a MALE.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1805029' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:24 PM']Now THAT is ridiculous. I am not offended in the LEAST when I hear "mankind."




Christ is a MALE.[/quote]


REALLY?

NOW THAT THINGS ARE IN CAPS I'M MUCH CLEARER ABOUT THAT


Check with your Pope, he said it not me.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1805031' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:25 PM']REALLY?

NOW THAT THINGS ARE IN CAPS I'M MUCH CLEARER ABOUT THAT


Check with your Pope, he said it not me.[/quote]

The Pope said Christ is genderless?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='takebacktonight' post='1804988' date='Mar 12 2009, 03:54 PM']Seriously though, back to the article... I totally agree with HisChildForever. The notion that emotionality and inner spirituality are inherently female is bullfunky. Just take a look at the Promise Keepers. Those are some pretty emotional dudes totally dedicated to putting women back in their place, because it's God's will.

Yes, women are socially conditioned to express or repress certain aspects of their character to conform to gender norms, as are men, but this has nothing to do with a percentage of 'innateness'.[/quote]

The problem, in my observation, is not so much that there are the "feminine" attributes in the Church, but rather that many of what are considered "masculine" attributes have been pushed out - notably assertiveness and decisiveness. And I use the word "attribute" because these attributes need to be employed by BOTH genders (for example, both mother and father will need to be able to be assertive in order to say "NO!" to their children - and yes, this qualifies as a confrontation - when the need arises). Unfortunately, "confrontation" is a dirty word among many Christians today - many will say that "keeping the peace" is the most important thing.

BOTH attributes are needed by BOTH genders and so BOTH need to coexist.

[takebacktonight]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1805019' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:18 PM']I distinctly remember one instance where the priest at our Newman Center who substituted the word "humankind" for "mankind" and when I mentioned why he did not use the word "humanity", he replied that it wasn't satisfactory enough for the feminists.[/quote]

I don't see how using humankind versus humanity (or, for goodness' sakes mankind) is of great relevance to feminists (and I am a HUGE one)

Unless of course men are willing to use those words so they can later roll their eyes over how excessive and emotional these women are..

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1805033' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:26 PM']The Pope said Christ is genderless?[/quote]


No, he said God is neither male not female. As I said he went on to qualify that and I am not the right phatmasser to go into greater depth. He did, as I recall, add as part of his qualification that the fact that God mannifested himself as a male in the figure of Christ is important. I have not read that book since 11th grade and really don't want to try and propperly give his explanation.

[takebacktonight]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1805037' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:28 PM']The problem, in my observation, is not so much that there are the "feminine" attributes in the Church, but rather that many of what are considered "masculine" attributes have been pushed out - notably assertiveness and decisiveness. And I use the word "attribute" because these attributes need to be employed by BOTH genders (for example, both mother and father will need to be able to be assertive in order to say "NO!" to their children - and yes, this qualifies as a confrontation - when the need arises). Unfortunately, "confrontation" is a dirty word among many Christians today - many will say that "keeping the peace" is the most important thing.

BOTH attributes are needed by BOTH genders and so BOTH need to coexist.[/quote]

I'm not sure about the Catholic church not being assertive and decisive...

But I do agree with you that everyone has become too PC and scared.

[takebacktonight]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1805040' date='Mar 12 2009, 04:29 PM']No, he said God is neither male not female.[/quote]


It's difficult to conceptualize an omnipotent, divine being.

I can see the Pope's reasoning that God is neither male nor female because God doesn't have a physical body..

I wonder....does anyone know if the Church makes a distinction between sex, and gender?

[Socrates]

This problem was addressed from a Catholic perspective in the book [url="http://www.amazon.com/Church-Impotent-Feminization-Christianity/dp/1890626198/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1236907012&sr=8-1"][i]The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity[/i], by Leon Podles[/url].
While one may not agree with everything these people say, I think they have some legitimate points. The "feminization of Christianity" is indeed a problem, in both much of "mainstream" protestant churches, and, unfortunately, in many Catholic parishes.

I think the problem is less so in solidly orthodox "conservative" parishes, such as my home parish, where there seems to be a pretty healthy balance between men and women.

It seems this topic periodically comes up on Phatmass, and every time I address it, there's a mob of angry women at my throat . . .


[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1804837' date='Mar 12 2009, 12:34 PM']I find this hilarious. Are their churches dominated by female preachers? If the answer is no, then just as many men are preaching "feminized" Christianity. Maybe these male preachers should recognize that they are losing male members and ask themselves why. Or maybe male preachers can give female preachers some kind words of advice.

Furthermore, I severely dislike that the blame is being placed on women, that men are leaving the church. Maybe it's not JUST the style of preaching, but the members' [i]personality[/i] and [i]"me-first" faith[/i] that pushes them to leave and search for a church more to their liking. That's why Catholicism is so great, there's no room for subjective interpretation.[/quote]
I think the word "feminization" tends to cause problems and misunderstandings.
The problem isn't women or a feminine presence in the Church, but rather the lack of a masculine or manly presence which ought to be present. I do think feminism in the Church has contributed to the problem, however.
I think "emasculation" might be a better, more accurate term to use, though "feminization" is commonly used in our language to describe loss of a strongly masculine character; ie. "the feminization of the workplace," "feminization of the military," etc.

I agree that the problem isn't so much women as unmanly men leading parishes (another reason a preponderance of homosexual or otherwise effeminate men in seminaries is a problem, but that's probably another debate).

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1804868' date='Mar 12 2009, 01:05 PM']Okay, I see what you're saying. Also, I don't think it's wise to say "women are nurturers" and "men are adventurous." While both statements are [i]true[/i] they should not be [i]compared[/i] because then it sounds like men can't be nurturers and women can't be adventurous. Therefore, while these Christian churches seem to appeal to one's emotions and feelings, it's ridiculous to think "Emotions...feelings...okay, we're turning into feminists!" What a stupid conclusion.

[i]Why[/i] do they have to label that preaching "style" with a gender? They make it sound as if men are not as emotional as women. Just because men don't DISPLAY their emotions the way women do does NOT men that they experience LESS emotion. One of my priests is very passionate and animated during his homilies. Uh-oh, is that too much womanly emotion, will there be any men left in the pews this Sunday?

Anyway, just do a search on YouTube and watch clips of the Christians who flail around "possessed" by the Holy Spirit, or the Christians who shout "AMEN" to their preachers every five seconds with their arms raised, and tell me you see more women than men. Plenty of men go for that sort of thing too.[/quote]
You should read the article carefully before jumping all over it.

The "feminization" it's talking about is NOT the emotional, pumped-up "on-fire-with-the-Spirit" holy-roller Pentecostal type of preaching (a brand of religion, which, for whatever else one might say about it, I've never heard described as "feminized"), but rather the soft, touchy-feely "therapeutic" feel-good type of emphasis found in many "mainstream" churches today.[quote]…many people think of church only as a nurturing place that addresses personal needs, Pearcey said. Think: sitting in circles, sharing feelings, holding hands, singing softly, comforting members. An example of the feminization of the church is its music. Typical praise songs refer to Jesus as a Christian’s lover and praise his beauty and tenderness.[/quote]

While it's true that there are plenty of women such touchy-feely croutons does NOT appeal to, it's still an undeniable fact that overall, more women than men are drawn to (or tolerate) this sort of thing than men, for reasons discussed in the article.

Think of how women are more likely to watch soaps or Oprah, while men are more likely to watch sports. Stereotyping, perhaps, but not without a basis in reality.


Interestingly, I've seen signs that (at least in Catholic circles) things may be starting to change with this regard. Our pastor recently announced the need for more volunteers for parish duties, and how now (unusually) it was mostly [i]women's[/i] positions that were vacant.

Also, there was a recent survey of students at "Catholic" universities, which showed dismal results regarding things like sexual morality, support for abortion and homosexuality, and closeness to the sacraments.
Surprisingly, the results were worse for women in every category, especially "closeness to the sacraments."
The surveyors blamed feminism for this.
Not sure if this can be called good news, though.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='takebacktonight' post='1805048' date='Mar 12 2009, 03:38 PM']It's difficult to conceptualize an omnipotent, divine being.

I can see the Pope's reasoning that God is neither male nor female because God doesn't have a physical body..

I wonder....does anyone know if the Church makes a distinction between sex, and gender?[/quote]
God the Father has no physical body, and therefore cannot technically be called "male," though the male sex reflects in a pale way the Divine Fatherhood of God.

God is properly referred to by the masculine gender. He should not be thought of as some sort of androgynous being or an impersonal "it."