Mortal Sin Vs. Grave Sin

[Aloysius]

hot stuff, I am not re-writing the catechism any more than you are (and you ARE, your attempt to draw a distinction out of it is a huge stretch), nor am I siding with the Catholic Dictionary over the Catechism, I am merely saying that the two do not contradict each other.

you must be conscious of the sin while you are committing the sin, if you have forgotten about it later and honestly cannot remember it, well, the Church can't tell you to not go up to communion for something you're not conscious of, how would you know not to go up? that's why it says if you are conscious of a grave offense, you don't go up. a grave offense IS a mortal sin.

when one commits a sin of grave matter but does not meet one or both of the other factors, one is guilty only of a venial sin; ie, only a venial sin is imputed to the person. the sin is still deadly and therefore mortal, because it CAN kill grace in your soul, but because you did not meet the criteria by which it killed grace in your soul, you are not imputed with a grave (mortal) offense.

the Catholic Dictionary is not in contradiction to the Catechism. nor is the Code of Canon Law, nor is Saint Thomas Aquinas, nor is the Council of Trent, nor is the Council of Florence. All of these things are supporting factors in the points I am making... while not every one of them fully proves the point, all of them make a convergence to my point; and the crux of your argument is an attempted extrapolation from wording in the Catechism which, and I am not sure I speak for everyone but at least for a large amount of people, seems like a stretch to a lot of people here. I understand why you think this is the distinction being made, but the reason the Catechism uses the different terms is much more easily explained (and much more in line with all the other supporting sources) by what the Catholic Dictionary says--that they are synonymous terms which emphasize different aspects of the same exact thing.

[Aloysius]

heresy is as good as any other sin for an example of how things should be phrased...

heresy is a sin of grave matter, a mortal sin because it has the potential to kill grace in the soul. one who is guilty of heresy but has not fulfilled the other two requirements (full knowledge and full consent) is guilty of a venial sin; the imputability of the grave offense is diminished or entirely removed based upon ignorance or lack of consent.

[Jaime]

So if its diminished.... It's still what praytell?

[Aloysius]

heresy in general? it's still a mortal sin, a grave sin, but in that specific case it is then a venial sin for that person (if it is diminished). they are not considered to have committed a mortal sin, even though heresy itself is a mortal sin, a grave offense. why? because the mortal sin (aka grave offense) is not imputed upon them; it is either diminished and then they have committed a venial sin, or else it is entirely moved which means that they are not blamed for the sin at all.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1802268' date='Mar 10 2009, 12:14 AM'][b]hot stuff, I am not re-writing the catechism any more than you are (and you ARE, your attempt to draw a distinction out of it is a huge stretch)[/b] [color="#006400"]Well I'm not actually I'm stating what is there. I just wanted to draw attention to how contradictory you are being in one sentence[/color], nor am I siding with the Catholic Dictionary over the Catechism, I am merely saying that the two do not contradict each other.

you must be conscious of the sin while you are committing the sin, if you have forgotten about it later and honestly cannot remember it, well, the Church can't tell you to not go up to communion for something you're not conscious of, how would you know not to go up? that's why it says if you are conscious of a grave offense, you don't go up. a grave offense IS a mortal sin.

when one commits a sin of grave matter but does not meet one or both of the other factors, one is guilty only of a venial sin; ie, only a venial sin is imputed to the person. the sin is still deadly and therefore mortal, because it CAN kill grace in your soul, but because you did not meet the criteria by which it killed grace in your soul, you are not imputed with a grave (mortal) offense.

the Catholic Dictionary is not in contradiction to the Catechism. nor is the Code of Canon Law, nor is Saint Thomas Aquinas, nor is the Council of Trent, nor is the Council of Florence. All of these things are supporting factors in the points I am making... while not every one of them fully proves the point, all of them make a convergence to my point; and the crux of your argument is an attempted extrapolation from wording in the Catechism which, and I am not sure I speak for everyone but at least for a large amount of people, seems like a stretch to a lot of people here. I understand why you think this is the distinction being made, but the reason the Catechism uses the different terms is much more easily explained (and much more in line with all the other supporting sources) by what the Catholic Dictionary says--that they are synonymous terms which emphasize different aspects of the same exact thing.[/quote]

No they don't have a "convergence" Al. You are trying to create something that you want to exist out several documents (that don't say anything about what you are saying).

The Church in no documents draws a distinction between mortal sins. There are no really really mortal sins.

The Church does in fact teach about how some sins are objectively grave in nature. (heresy, masturbation pre marital sex, etc) The Church lists these sins as grave. But makes the distinction of what is mortal and what is not. There are no conditions on sins that are of grave matter. You want to use logic? Great. Let's use it now

A person gets pulled over for making a U turn and gets a ticket. He goes before the judge and says "Your Honor I had no idea that U turns were illegal on that street" The judge then reduces his fine or removes it. He doesn't change the law mind you he assesses punishment based upon intention.

Its still against the law

Sins are the same. Some are of grave matter. Some are not. The Church is clear about which ones are of grave matter. Notice that She doesn't say "can be of grave matter" they just are. There is no condition set. You are saying that some sins can be grave and there are times when they are not. That isn't what the Church teaches. when the Church talks about imputability its about the guilt assessed (intention) not the action taken.

And she teaches that intentionally Al. It is a grave offense to miss church. But does that mean that the 12 year old who fakes being sick because he doesn't feel like going has committed a mortal sin? Has that kid intentionally said "I purposefully and intentionally want to be cut off from God's Grace." ?

Possibly not.

The gravity of the sin is objective. The intentionality is what makes it mortal.

[Aloysius]

the gravity and mortality of the sin is objective, because gravity and mortality are used synonymously by the Church. these sins are considered objectively mortal sins because they can kill grace in the soul.

you are correct to say, and I worded things slightly imprecisely (but still correctly as I did indeed hold that the sin was still mortal but only applied as venial for that person who committed it, but my post could go the other way too so it was imprecise) in my last post when I answered you, that the sin itself remains grave; it also remains mortal (used synonymously without distinction by the Church, you have yet to show the Church drawing a distinction though a source has been provided that says that the only distinction is the aspect of that thing focused on by the words)--because it can kill grace in the soul.

the sin is still mortal and it is imputed to the person as venial or else not at all depending upon the other factors. I stand by the definitions offered by the Catholic Dictionary, which DO say exactly what I'm saying and DO make more sense when all of those other sources are considered. most people here very clearly see that: different degrees of punishment in hell mean there must be different degrees of sins that send one to hell.

again, I understand why you attempt to make "grave sin" shorthand for "sin which has grave matter yet does not fulfill the other requirements of mortal sin" but there is no basis for that in Church teaching and you have extrapolated an elaborate distinction which goes so far as to say different grave sins have different degrees of seriousness while all mortal sins are equal, a ridiculous notion because grave sins ARE mortal sins and mortal sins ARE grave sins.

[quote]The gravity of the sin is objective. The intentionality is what makes it mortal.[/quote]
the gravity and mortality of the sin are objective. the intentionality decides whether in any given subjective case, it is imputed to the sinner as a mortal/grave or venial(synonymous terms with slightly different focuses) sin or as not a sin at all depending upon one's culpability for the sin.

[Jaime]

If that is true Al, then you should be able to cite the number and the paragraph which states what sins are mortal.

If mortal sins are objective then please list them according to the CCC. (I can list the grave sins)

[Jaime]

And I will give bonus points ( I will concede the whole argument and pay off the 10 dollar bet with notardillacid) If you show me where in the Catechism the really super mortal sins are listed.

[Aloysius]

the words are synonymously used in the Catechism, with a different emphasis. the term "grave sin" is used when discussing sins objectively because of its emphasis while the term "mortal sin" is used when discussing sins effects upon the sinner, because the word "mortal" refers to its effect upon the sinner while the word "grave" refers to its nature as a serious sin. when read through with the definitions provided in this thread by the Modern Catholic Dictionary, the Catechism makes complete sense and it is easily understood that mortal sins are grave sins and grave sins are mortal sins.

can you refer me to the paragraph that gives the distinction between "mortal sin" and "grave sin"? there is a paragraph that gives the distinction between "grave sin" and "venial sin" (1472) and there is another paragraph that gives the relatively same distinction between "mortal sin" and "venial sin" (1855). again, two words that refer to the same sins with a different emphasis; so if one of them has different degrees of wrongness, so do both of them. you have made the unfounded assertion that grave sins have different degrees of wrongness but mortal sins are all equal.;

[Aloysius]

[quote name='hot stuff' post='1802389' date='Mar 10 2009, 03:18 AM']And I will give bonus points ( I will concede the whole argument and pay off the 10 dollar bet with notardillacid) If you show me where in the Catechism the really super mortal sins are listed.[/quote]
loophole! You didn't say WHICH catechism I had to show this to you in...

"8 Q. Which are the sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance?
A. The sins that are said to cry to God for vengeance are these four: (1) Willful murder; (2) The sin of sodomy; (3) Oppression of the poor; (4) Defrauding labourers of their wages.

9 Q. Why are these sins said to cry to God for vengeance?
A. These sins are said to cry to God for vengeance because the Holy Ghost says so, and because their iniquity is so great and so manifest that it provokes God to punish them with the severest chastisements."
-Catechism of Pope St. Pius X

sound like the super duper mortal sins to me, their iniquity is SO GREAT (ie, greater than other mortal sins) that they provoke God to punish them.

haha, I'll be a good sport and not make you pay up on that bet since you clearly meant the CCC

[Jaime]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1802390' date='Mar 10 2009, 02:19 AM']the words are synonymously used in the Catechism, with a different emphasis. the term "grave sin" is used when discussing sins objectively because of its emphasis while the term "mortal sin" is used when discussing sins effects upon the sinner, because the word "mortal" refers to its effect upon the sinner while the word "grave" refers to its nature as a serious sin. when read through with the definitions provided in this thread by the Modern Catholic Dictionary, the Catechism makes complete sense and it is easily understood that mortal sins are grave sins and grave sins are mortal sins.

can you refer me to the paragraph that gives the distinction between "mortal sin" and "grave sin"? there is a paragraph that gives the distinction between "grave sin" and "venial sin" (1472) and there is another paragraph that gives the relatively same distinction between "mortal sin" and "venial sin" (1855). again, two words that refer to the same sins with a different emphasis; so if one of them has different degrees of wrongness, so do both of them. you have made the unfounded assertion that grave sins have different degrees of wrongness but mortal sins are all equal.;[/quote]

So you can't list the objective mortals sins. Wouldn't it just be easier to say "wow hot stuff you might be right here"

I will one last time show you the distinction between mortal and grave.

[quote]1857 For a sin to be mortal, [size=4][b]three conditions must together be met[/b][/size]: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."[/quote]

notice how it says that there are conditions? So then mortal sin is not objective it is....


conditional

One of the conditions is that sin "whose object is of grave matter" (one of three)


[quote]2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.[/quote]

sins gravely contrary (or you can say "grave sin")

See any conditions there? Nope masturbation fornication pornography and homosexual practices are always sins who's nature is grave.

[Resurrexi]

The CCC isn't the end all and be all of everything the Church has ever taught, you know. Here is an interesting quote from the Council of Florence stating an objective action to be mortally sinful.

"It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord's coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally."(Denzinger 712)

[Jaime]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1802400' date='Mar 10 2009, 02:30 AM']The CCC isn't the end all and be all of everything the Church has ever taught, you know. Here is an interesting quote from the Council of Florence stating an objective action to be mortally sinful.

"It firmly believes, professes, and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosiac law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord's coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally."(Denzinger 712)[/quote]

Does the council of Florence contradict what is stated in the Catechism?

[Resurrexi]

No, but it does use the term "mortal sin" to refer to an objective action, meaning that one can say that "murder is a mortal sin" and not have to add "if one has full knowledge and deliberate consent."

[Aloysius]

[quote]The terms mortal, deadly, grave, and serious applied to sin are synonyms, each with a slightly different implication. Mortal and deadly focus on the effects in the sinner, namely deprivation of the state of friendship with God; grave and serious refer to the importance of the matter in which a person offends God. But the Church never distinguishes among these terms as though they represented different kinds of sins. There is only one recognized correlative to mortal sin, and that is venial sin, which offends against God but does not cause the loss of one's state of grace. (Etym. Latin mors, death.)[/quote]

THIS applies to every single quote you provide, and makes perfect and complete sense in regards to it. The opposite of a grave sin is a venial sin. The opposite of a mortal sin is a venial sin. grave and mortal are two ways of speaking about the same sins. sins are mortal because they will kill grace in the soul when all three conditions are met. when you're talking about an specific sinner, the question is "was the sin mortal for them?" when talking about sins in general, one says "is the sin grave?" OR "is the sin mortal?"

listen, I understand where you're coming from and why you're making those distinctions, I simply disagree and do not see that as being taught by the Catechism, which is why I do not say "gee, hot stuff, I guess you're right there" the quotes you provide I read differently, and my reading is consistent. the distinction you are implying simply does not exist, it's a construct; it's an algorithm often applied to the problem to make it easier to explain to people but it's NOT what the Catechism is saying. show me where the Catechism says "if a sin has grave matter but the other conditions are not met, it is a grave sin, but if a sin has grave matter and the other conditions are met, it is a mortal sin"